The time has come: AP Brakes

[kennef]

Thanks for the pictures. Is the rear disc the factory one?

Yeah, the seller bought the caliper kit only. it is also plug and play to the factory rear discs.

 

[kennef]

I'm sticking with factory rear discs too on simpsons advice.


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How come? What's their reasoning? I'd swap them simply for aesthetics

prolly cheaper just to get the pair of calipers and pads.

 

[Beedub]

Im glad i got the proper ap rear discs as well, the caliper is the important bit, the stock discs are actually very good quality imo and arnt the weak link.

 

[Franzino]

Picked up the car this morning and the brakes are quite fantastic. Pedal feel is so much better and more predictable. Clearance is paper thin but not an issue. Also needed to relocate the balancing weights to the inner side of the rim.

I did not know you could also place the balancing weight to the inner side of the rim... That's good news. Maybe in real life my 18" double spoke 164M winter wheels will also fit with the CP5575

My calipers are the CP5575 type. You can find this number near the inner-side pistons by removing the caliper from it's mounting. They do clear the CSL rims more convincingly than the standard OEM 18s.

Great news THANKS!!!!! x100

 

[kennef]

no probs bro. glad to share

 

[Franzino]

They do fit behind the stock OEM rims. Fits perfectly as my friend would say. But there's very little clearance between the caliper & the spoke & the rim which is kinda worrying. Will be testing it tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

Where is your balancing weight gone? Deeper inside the wheel?

 

[Franzino]

I'm sticking with factory rear discs too on simpsons advice.

Why do they advise this? Any benefits besides a little cheaper price?

 

[Franzino]

At the end of this month I'm going to order a BBK for my Z4M . It's probably going to the full AP racing kit. I was just wondering... Does AP racing have dust seals fitted on their calipers...? Some racing calipers don't have dust seals... This is ok for pure racing, but on a BBK for street cars dust seals seem essential for daily drives and winter time.

Its not a 'problem' not having dust seals, its just that it does make them more maintenance intensive when used on the street primarily/constantly. They simply need to be rebuilt more often than OEM stock ones, thats all, but the performance is great with them when properly maintained

 

[Beedub]

Fran, my setup does have dust seals, one thing i will say is for god sake UPGRADE from the APF404 pads that come with the kits, i put these pads on for a trip to simpson to clean off transfer layer from my pagids on the rotors, wow they really suck, by the time i arrived @ simpson they were smoking heavily.....You can order the kits with pagids, pay the extra and do it right from the off......

After taking them off and sticking th pagids in, they were cracked, pitted and battered..... These are a complete street pad. Just giving some friendly advice...

byron

 

[Franzino]

Fran, my setup does have dust seals, one thing i will say is for god sake UPGRADE from the APF404 pads that come with the kits, i put these pads on for a trip to simpson to clean off transfer layer from my pagids on the rotors, wow they really suck, by the time i arrived @ simpson they were smoking heavily.....You can order the kits with pagids, pay the extra and do it right from the off......

After taking them off and sticking th pagids in, they were cracked, pitted and battered..... These are a complete street pad. Just giving some friendly advice...

byron

What type of pagids are you referring to? Do they squeal a lot when breaking in normal traffic? The standard brake pads delivered with AP kit in Belgium are the Ferodo DS 2500 (street & light track pad). A lot of people are positive about them.

I've used a couple of sets on an E36 325is, that is mostly a track day car. They don't have quite the 'hitting-a-brick-wall' feel of, say, Hawk HT-10's or PF-97's. But they do have a very flat coefficient of friction, high temp tolerance, affordable price, no corrosive dust and minimal squeel on the street. I consider thse a dual duty pad, if weighted somewhat towards track abuse.

I'd consider this a very great almost dual purpose pad. It doesnt need to be warmed up so it is extremely safe for the streets and autocross. It is also nice and quite and wont annoy you. Remarkably, this pad also resists fade quite well and I wouldnt hesitate to use it for autocross and high speed driving, perhaps even an occasional lapping day (we'll see about that soon and will post a follow-up). The only drawback is that it is dusty, which to be is a no brainer trade-off considering the performance increase.

 

[kennef]

Where is your balancing weight gone? Deeper inside the wheel?

The tyre shop guy advised against put the weights on the inner side. He stuck it about halfway in. Works fine and clears the caliper because this rim "slopes down" inwards.

 

[Franzino]

Where is your balancing weight gone? Deeper inside the wheel?

The tyre shop guy advised against put the weights on the inner side. He stuck it about halfway in. Works fine and clears the caliper because this rim "slopes down" inwards.

That's also the case with my 18" M164 winterwheels, so maybe after replacing the balancing weight they will fit also. Are there any downsides of placing the weight in the middle of the wheels?

 

[kennef]

Where is your balancing weight gone? Deeper inside the wheel?

The tyre shop guy advised against put the weights on the inner side. He stuck it about halfway in. Works fine and clears the caliper because this rim "slopes down" inwards.

That's also the case with my 18" M164 winterwheels, so maybe after replacing the balancing weight they will fit also. Are there any downsides of placing the weight in the middle of the wheels?

Works fine for me. No vibrations at high speed.

 

[Beedub]

Fran, my setup does have dust seals, one thing i will say is for god sake UPGRADE from the APF404 pads that come with the kits, i put these pads on for a trip to simpson to clean off transfer layer from my pagids on the rotors, wow they really suck, by the time i arrived @ simpson they were smoking heavily.....You can order the kits with pagids, pay the extra and do it right from the off......

After taking them off and sticking th pagids in, they were cracked, pitted and battered..... These are a complete street pad. Just giving some friendly advice...

byron

What type of pagids are you referring to? Do they squeal a lot when breaking in normal traffic? The standard brake pads delivered with AP kit in Belgium are the Ferodo DS 2500 (street & light track pad). A lot of people are positive about them.

I've used a couple of sets on an E36 325is, that is mostly a track day car. They don't have quite the 'hitting-a-brick-wall' feel of, say, Hawk HT-10's or PF-97's. But they do have a very flat coefficient of friction, high temp tolerance, affordable price, no corrosive dust and minimal squeel on the street. I consider thse a dual duty pad, if weighted somewhat towards track abuse.

I'd consider this a very great almost dual purpose pad. It doesnt need to be warmed up so it is extremely safe for the streets and autocross. It is also nice and quite and wont annoy you. Remarkably, this pad also resists fade quite well and I wouldnt hesitate to use it for autocross and high speed driving, perhaps even an occasional lapping day (we'll see about that soon and will post a follow-up). The only drawback is that it is dusty, which to be is a no brainer trade-off considering the performance increase.

pagid blue im using... expensive but much better than ds2500 and APF404 (ap's rebranded ds2500)
They instill a solid pedal, consistant bite and lovely equal transfer layer, and virtually silent, definatly the best All-round pads ive used..... they easily soak up the punishment my car can throw at them..... im just trying to save you some money do a search on the m3 forums Re the APf404/ ds2500 and you'll see what i mean..... BUT, they are however a great road pad... low dust and really quiet, work well from cold..... the pagids and just much more of an all-rounder and can easily deal with trackwork also.....

 

[Franzino]

pagid blue im using... expensive but much better than ds2500 and APF404 (ap's rebranded ds2500)
They instill a solid pedal, consistant bite and lovely equal transfer layer, and virtually silent, definatly the best All-round pads ive used..... they easily soak up the punishment my car can throw at them..... im just trying to save you some money do a search on the m3 forums Re the APf404/ ds2500 and you'll see what i mean..... BUT, they are however a great road pad... low dust and really quiet, work well from cold..... the pagids and just much more of an all-rounder and can easily deal with trackwork also.....

Thanks for letting me know! I was under the impression that the Ferodo DS 2500 and Pagid blue delivered similar performance (but that the Pagid blue is making more noise with normal street driving). Pagid blue is also known as Pagid RS 4-2 (http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/products/rs42-blue-carbon-based.php)

My main four concerns for brake pads are:
- Do they transfer a lot of material on the discs (I hate steering judder).
- Do they squeal a lot when braking on the street (really annoying when driving with the roof down).
- How can they handle fast driving or the occasional trackday.
- How do they brake when the brakes are cold.

Opinions on Pagid Blue
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1966638 (Opinions on Pagid Blue for street use)
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum/553314-noisy-pagid-blue-sport-pads.html (noisy pagid blue)

Any opinions about Pagid black (RS 4-2-1) and Pagid orange (RS 4-4)? Pagid black RS 4-2-1 seem very good for street driving but not so for track driving. The orange RS 4-4 doesn’t seem so often used. They have more bite, but also more noise on the street… From the Pagid range the blue RS 4-2 seem the best for dual purpose use (street and track combination).

Question; does the Pagid blue or Ferodo DS 2500 come with the possibility to fit sensors that light up your dash when you need replacing your pads. If not; when do you know it is the right time to replace your pads…?

 

[Beedub]

an even transfer layer is what you wantm what you dont want is an uneven pad transfer, the pagids will give you that every single time......... after much research is found the APF404/ds2500 not suitable for track or hard road use, they are very similar to the stock pad just hold out alittle better.... they do however have excellent manners for road use..... The ds2500 cant compare to the pagids, the APf404 may take SOME track use but will defaintly melt pretty quickly...

the pagids Are DEFINATLY not noisey But then again i do bed in procedure reguarly which keeps the transfer layer good, and keep noise at bay/get contued performance from these...... These are race brakes that need proper use to keep them in fettle... you will need to use them as designed, you will need / want to continue the bed in process reguarly to keep the pad and rotor in optimal condition.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinperformance.shtml

You will now have to take the wheels off the car to keep an eye on pad wear.... the sensors are not incorperated into the AP kit.

 

[Franzino]

an even transfer layer is what you wantm what you dont want is an uneven pad transfer, the pagids will give you that every single time......... after much research is found the APF404/ds2500 not suitable for track or hard road use, they are very similar to the stock pad just hold out alittle better.... they do however have excellent manners for road use..... The ds2500 cant compare to the pagids, the APf404 may take SOME track use but will defaintly melt pretty quickly..

Okay, Pagids blue are the ones I'm going to order with the AP kit... Thanks for the advice
If I have the time then I'm going to order my AP kit next week. Then it will be some waiting time....

the pagids Are DEFINATLY not noisey But then again i do bed in procedure reguarly which keeps the transfer layer good, and keep noise at bay/get contued performance from these...... These are race brakes that need proper use to keep them in fettle... you will need to use them as designed, you will need / want to continue the bed in process reguarly to keep the pad and rotor in optimal condition.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinperformance.shtml

So the correct bedding in procedure is the key to silent and good preforming brake pads... I presume this Stoptech bedding in procedure applies also for AP racing and other BBK. With Pagid blue; should i follow the procedure for "Street-Performance Pads" or "Club Race / Full Race Pads"?

You will now have to take the wheels off the car to keep an eye on pad wear.... the sensors are not incorperated into the AP kit

Not a big problem; If I know what to look for then I can check this myself. The torque wrench I bought will come in handy when fitting the wheels again...

 

[Beedub]

an even transfer layer is what you wantm what you dont want is an uneven pad transfer, the pagids will give you that every single time......... after much research is found the APF404/ds2500 not suitable for track or hard road use, they are very similar to the stock pad just hold out alittle better.... they do however have excellent manners for road use..... The ds2500 cant compare to the pagids, the APf404 may take SOME track use but will defaintly melt pretty quickly..

Okay, Pagids blue are the ones I'm going to order with the AP kit... Thanks for the advice
If I have the time then I'm going to order my AP kit next week. Then it will be some waiting time....

the pagids Are DEFINATLY not noisey But then again i do bed in procedure reguarly which keeps the transfer layer good, and keep noise at bay/get contued performance from these...... These are race brakes that need proper use to keep them in fettle... you will need to use them as designed, you will need / want to continue the bed in process reguarly to keep the pad and rotor in optimal condition.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinperformance.shtml

So the correct bedding in procedure is the key to silent and good preforming brake pads... I presume this Stoptech bedding in procedure applies also for AP racing and other BBK. With Pagid blue; should i follow the procedure for "Street-Performance Pads" or "Club Race / Full Race Pads"?

You will now have to take the wheels off the car to keep an eye on pad wear.... the sensors are not incorperated into the AP kit

Not a big problem; If I know what to look for then I can check this myself. The torque wrench I bought will come in handy when fitting the wheels again...

hi fran... i use the club race bed in......

basically 10 stops from 60-10mph in straight after each other order, the pads heat to max and transfer a lovely even pad layer to the rotor, the usually look bright blue when youve finished, sometimes they smoke alittle but performance actually gets better with every single brake from 60.. you can feel the pads heating and getting into their stride........ so far ive never heard a squeak from these pads/brakes......
you will need to do this bed process reguarly to keep the brakes at their best performance, you'll know when you need to do it again when the rotors look like mirrors, usually lots of gentle use slowly rubs off the transfer layer...

The pagids are a GREAT pad, expensive but well worth it, i love the solid brake pedal they give as well, another pagid blue trait
Pay extra and get the red enamel calipers, the paint finish is just beautiful and they REALLY stand out.......... Definatly one of my favourite purchases......

After spending Lots of time @ silverstone recently with the carbon cermic braked porche GTs model, the AP bbk (with correct pads) feel in terms of pedal feel and speed retardation felt very similar to those PCCB systems.....your in for a real treat once you get these installed. At the track i can brake so deep into corners i scare myself BTW pad changes will now take you 5 mins per corner.... 1 bolt, pads pop out, slide new ones in.... done...... Sooo easy now..

(note)
i Went for Arp shot peened wheel studs and magnesium composite wheel nuts, its sooo easy to get wheels on and off quickly now, i imported these from the usa (Turner motorsport) and they also weight about 1/4 of what the stock items come in @ + are about 20x stronger, even better they allow upto 12mm Spacer fitment, and lastly they look REALLY cool.....

the nuts also have a rotating seat @ the bottom to allow them to torque down better and not damage you wheels also, included was locking units also..... the whole SET was lighter than the one side of o.e.m bolts.... fabulous quality, and with trackuse in mind very strong, wheel off moments are now a joy......

 

[Franzino]

hi fran... i use the club race bed in......

basically 10 stops from 60-10mph in straight after each other order, the pads heat to max and transfer a lovely even pad layer to the rotor, the usually look bright blue when youve finished, sometimes they smoke alittle but performance actually gets better with every single brake from 60.. you can feel the pads heating and getting into their stride........ so far ive never heard a squeak from these pads/brakes......
you will need to do this bed process reguarly to keep the brakes at their best performance, you'll know when you need to do it again when the rotors look like mirrors, usually lots of gentle use slowly rubs off the transfer layer...

Good to know!

The pagids are a GREAT pad, expensive but well worth it, i love the solid brake pedal they give as well, another pagid blue trait

Do you know what the minimum pad thickness is before replacing the pads. Or is there a visual indicator on the pads (when removing wheels of course)

Pay extra and get the red enamel calipers, the paint finish is just beautiful and they REALLY stand out.......... Definatly one of my favourite purchases......

Changing the brakes with a BBK is illegal in my country (fitting spacers also). If they notice it I will fail the yearly MOT and I have to change to the oem brakes for the MOT. This is the main reason why I'm going for the black ones (they are the most anonymous). In time the Yellow AP racing logo will also be blacked out on my calipers (then they look nameless). For me personally I only fit them for the uprated brake power (+ less fading) on track days, not for the visual impact. It's true A BBK has a nice look, but it's not the main reason why I would fit them.

If MOT was not a problem and silver was an option, then I would order them in silver. Red calipers are a little to Porsche-look for my taste :wink: My oem Z4M calipers are silver and that looks good on my car. Don't know if this is the case on all Z4M's or that the previous owner painted them silver.

After spending Lots of time @ silverstone recently with the carbon cermic braked porche GTs model, the AP bbk (with correct pads) feel in terms of pedal feel and speed retardation felt very similar to those PCCB systems.....your in for a real treat once you get these installed. At the track i can brake so deep into corners i scare myself BTW pad changes will now take you 5 mins per corner.... 1 bolt, pads pop out, slide new ones in.... done...... Sooo easy now..

Is this experience with the Pagid blue set-up, or is this with other brake pads (Pagid Yellow)?


By the way, what made you change your mind about the Pagid Blues? At first you were also no so enthusiastic...

one thing im not to sure about is the pagid blue pads, they seem imo not to great from cold, once the temps in them they are awesome BUT... i like a pad to perform from the off, they are VERY dusty to,
not to sure on the pagid blues, anyone got any input on these pads?

 

[Franzino]

Dust seals
Beedub confirmed that his AP kit (CP5555) with the larger caliper has some dust seals. Someone on another forum told me that the smaller AP kit (CP5575) does not have dust seals when it first came out and that this was the main reason why they could make the caliper thinner. Is this true and is this in the new kits also? No dust seals on a BBK that's mainly for road use does not seem so good for their life quality... Racing calipers have no dust seals, but they rebuild them a lot....

Wheel Size
I was wondering if someone knew the exact size of the inner rim diameter of the oem Z4M wheel (front). I mean the size of the inside of the Z4M wheel (the outside is obviously 18"). I don't have the oem Z4M wheels, otherwise I could measure the inside of the front wheels myself. I only have 19" CSL wheels and M164 winter wheels.

After relocating the balance weight, Kennef could fit the oem Z4M wheel with his AP caliper (CP5575). When I used the AP measure template for this CP5575 caliper it got stuck against the inside of my 18" M164 wheel. Maybe the measure template is a little optimistic or maybe the inside of the Z4M rim is a fraction larger then the 18" M164 winter wheel? They are both 18" in diameter, but the design of the wheel is totally different... Would like to know if the M164 wheels would fit in real life... When I order my AP kit..I will only know after a couple of weeks if they fit.