DSC/ABS "delete"?
- Thread starter v8z4
- Start date
I've noticed this from time to time as well and thought it odd almost like air in the system to the point that I was going to change the fluid and bleed the brakes, need to check when they where last done.Boogle said:
As for the driver aids I'm in two minds I'm not aggressive driver so very rarely trigger them but as others have said we drove cars for a long time without them and didn't end up in the nearest hedge on every corner.
I test drove a Mazda RX8 before buying the Zed and the system on that was so intrusive that it was dangerous accelerating up a damp slip road in 4th at about 55mph the traction control light came on changed up same thing changed up again so now I'm 6th gear doing 45 mph and the damm thing is slowing down more and I'm running out of slip road a
with 40tonnes of truck bearing down me. Noway was that thing spinning the wheels at 45mph in 6th, dealer said I needed to take it on a dry day, needless to say I never went back.
It's even in the manual. When e.g. you are hooning and lift the foot rapidly from the accelerator, the brakes prime themselves for instant response. It's even in the manual.
v8z4 said:
Don't understand you "never liked the feel of ABS (even the best ABS feels spongy to me) If your feeling the ABS kicking in, then your driving over the law of physics of your car i.e. traction while braking and if it feels spongy, thats air in the brake lines, nothing to do with ABS. I have NEVER had the ABS kick in on my Z4.
If you HATE DSC, then switch it off, simple push of a button, but please don't try and mess around with safety aids on your car. BMW electrics are very complex with several systems working with each other. Even buy another car without these aids i you hate these systems so much.
I agree with mmm-five/ BMWZ4MC regarding traction aids v driving standards and too sensitive DSC, i grew up with 80's modified rwd Fords with NO nanny aids and personally think i'm a better driver for it.
corsaire77 said:
I shall have a look at the manual more, fair point well made
To be honest I rarely read it now, as it contains 0% of the information I want to know when I look for something. I read it twice when I got the car, so I guess age is playing havoc with my memory retention
I think you're crazy. The Z4 isn't "that" sort of car.
If you want raw, get a Lotus.
It's what I call a 'business class' sports car. It's quick, sure, has some handling to it, but is still comfortable and quite possible to live with day to day.
I would turn DSC off every now and again, never ABS though, not in a car like that.
Bear in mind, the age old "Oh we all started driving when there was no ABS or traction control etc" line is growing 'old' now. Cars are much faster, have a ton more technology and most of it is put in there to help us as drivers out.
I've owned 4 VX220's now, one was supercharged, did 60 in about 4 seconds and weighed probably as much as a pigeon. I'll tell you right now, on track, everything was turned off. On the road, for mine and other people's safety, I would always leave ABS on. I'm just not hero enough to trust myself with it off.
If you want raw, get a Lotus.
It's what I call a 'business class' sports car. It's quick, sure, has some handling to it, but is still comfortable and quite possible to live with day to day.
I would turn DSC off every now and again, never ABS though, not in a car like that.
Bear in mind, the age old "Oh we all started driving when there was no ABS or traction control etc" line is growing 'old' now. Cars are much faster, have a ton more technology and most of it is put in there to help us as drivers out.
I've owned 4 VX220's now, one was supercharged, did 60 in about 4 seconds and weighed probably as much as a pigeon. I'll tell you right now, on track, everything was turned off. On the road, for mine and other people's safety, I would always leave ABS on. I'm just not hero enough to trust myself with it off.
I sometimes switch DSC off in the dry, just to have some fun with the Zed's predictable characteristics. Anyway, accidents happen for stupid reasons that are utterly unpredictable, so in daily traffic I stay on the computer-aided tail-action-happy DCT.
I fully subscribe to what Seb.F and Bing have already said.
There are only a few situations in which I find ABS detrimental.
1) completely dry, track-like conditions, when you can fairly well predict the wheel lock point
2) snowy mud or black ice with bad tyres - no actual braking, just the typical ABS pumping; with no ABS, two stabs on the brakes usually did the work
3) emergency braking before traffic lights when going over multiple bumps, a frequent urban scenario. With the wheels in the air, ABS seems to go a little awry
PS
The "harder" brakes, apart from the situation that activates the brake assist fuction, can be felt when hitting the brakes while hill assist is working.
I fully subscribe to what Seb.F and Bing have already said.
There are only a few situations in which I find ABS detrimental.
1) completely dry, track-like conditions, when you can fairly well predict the wheel lock point
2) snowy mud or black ice with bad tyres - no actual braking, just the typical ABS pumping; with no ABS, two stabs on the brakes usually did the work
3) emergency braking before traffic lights when going over multiple bumps, a frequent urban scenario. With the wheels in the air, ABS seems to go a little awry
PS
The "harder" brakes, apart from the situation that activates the brake assist fuction, can be felt when hitting the brakes while hill assist is working.
This topic always seems to be very divisive because people take comments that 'you should always have DSC on to avoid crashes' as a direct insult to their driving ability.
Well it has nothing to do with attacking your ability, but it does involve some facts:
- On a public road there are things you can't see and/or predict. There may have been a diesel spill round that corner you're taking at speed
- On a public road there are no run-offs
- On a public road there are other people
To learn from a car with no traction control, you need to find the limits and exceed them. More than once. If you aren't exceeding the limits you aren't learning.
My argument is if you are driving hard enough for the DSC to be excessively intrusive when half-off you are driving in a very selfish manner. You are basically saying 'I want to learn the limits of my car and skills, and I don't care what the entails for other people'. The argument that cars didn't have it in the past doesn't hold water: There were fewer cars on the road, cars were slower (you'll be drifting at much slower speeds), and there were more accidents per capita. My Dad raced bikes and other than disliking power steering he has nothing against traction control 'it reacts much faster than I can'. Tiff Needell proves the point here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE Unless we've got some F1 champions on this forum, I don't think anyone here is better than him. That said, if it's a deserted road with great visibility where you will see other road users in plenty of time... well I'm not gonna stop you having fun.
The government really isn't helping. The ridiculous speed limits and cameras everywhere are frustrating people to the point that they start doing stupid things as a response. The vilification of people with performance cars is particularly offensive. There's something to be said for opening roads up like the TT course on Mad Sunday.
But seriously if you're driving on normal roads with other road users, please think of other people before you decide to see if you can roll your car, drift round a corner, or otherwise break traction on purpose.
Also I don't want my premiums to go up because you keep claiming for hitting trees & lamp posts
Well it has nothing to do with attacking your ability, but it does involve some facts:
- On a public road there are things you can't see and/or predict. There may have been a diesel spill round that corner you're taking at speed
- On a public road there are no run-offs
- On a public road there are other people
To learn from a car with no traction control, you need to find the limits and exceed them. More than once. If you aren't exceeding the limits you aren't learning.
My argument is if you are driving hard enough for the DSC to be excessively intrusive when half-off you are driving in a very selfish manner. You are basically saying 'I want to learn the limits of my car and skills, and I don't care what the entails for other people'. The argument that cars didn't have it in the past doesn't hold water: There were fewer cars on the road, cars were slower (you'll be drifting at much slower speeds), and there were more accidents per capita. My Dad raced bikes and other than disliking power steering he has nothing against traction control 'it reacts much faster than I can'. Tiff Needell proves the point here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE Unless we've got some F1 champions on this forum, I don't think anyone here is better than him. That said, if it's a deserted road with great visibility where you will see other road users in plenty of time... well I'm not gonna stop you having fun.
The government really isn't helping. The ridiculous speed limits and cameras everywhere are frustrating people to the point that they start doing stupid things as a response. The vilification of people with performance cars is particularly offensive. There's something to be said for opening roads up like the TT course on Mad Sunday.
But seriously if you're driving on normal roads with other road users, please think of other people before you decide to see if you can roll your car, drift round a corner, or otherwise break traction on purpose.
Also I don't want my premiums to go up because you keep claiming for hitting trees & lamp posts
Boogle said:But seriously if you're driving on normal roads with other road users, please think of other people before you decide to see if you can roll your car, drift round a corner, or otherwise break traction on purpose.
Also I don't want my premiums to go up because you keep claiming for hitting trees & lamp posts
Agreed absolutely. Unless you can cadence brake faster than ABS leave it alone. Ice is about the only recognised situation where ABS becomes detrimental.
DSC off is debatable. My boss's M5's DSC was intrusive, he was a racing driver and hated it. his Alpina B10 system was much less so and he preferred it, wishing he'd never upgraded to the M
I'm not a racing driver and I'd prefer to leave it on unless tracking it.
:fuelfire:
Tapatalking...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE
Thats the article i was referring to earlier...
There is an off camber dual carridgeway roundabout exit on the A8 near greenock where I live and in years back there was regularly a RWD BMW / Merc / Jag etc off the road in the inside of the road after loosing the back end.
The exit is now shellgripped and i firmly believe the DSC / traction control in new cars has dramatically reduced incidences of oversteer spins. I cant recall seeing a car off the road in the last 5 yrs on this roundabout...
Thats the article i was referring to earlier...
There is an off camber dual carridgeway roundabout exit on the A8 near greenock where I live and in years back there was regularly a RWD BMW / Merc / Jag etc off the road in the inside of the road after loosing the back end.
The exit is now shellgripped and i firmly believe the DSC / traction control in new cars has dramatically reduced incidences of oversteer spins. I cant recall seeing a car off the road in the last 5 yrs on this roundabout...
Wow... got quite a response, though not exactly the kind I was looking for (was looking for technical info, not opinion on the value/sensibility of the act). While on some level I am somewhat appreciative of everyone attempting to point out what they feel is important and thus keep a fellow Z owner safe, I wish people would answer the questions asked and not just rant rant rant.
First... to get some points out of the way (and hopefully put the rants to rest):
I admit that ABS is an excellent addition for passenger cars, SUVs, trucks, etc. and while I would never remove it from my Suburban, it adds a HORRIBLE feel to a tight performance oriented car's braking system. With a solid race prepped (non-ABS) braking system it's possible to feel the pads meet the rotor (not going to get this with factory master/lines/pads/etc either). When I hear a person say "the ABS does not affect the braking feel", I KNOW they have never experienced the difference of a back to back test, same exact car with/without ABS pump block in-line. It's night and day.... go test it..... end of discussion....
Further, seeing that I live in the Sonoran Desert where it's sunny 360 days out of the year (and 100+ degrees F 4 months out of the year), gets 8" (0.208meters) of rain a year (most all of it in one month), and that I only drive the car when I choose to, I'm pretty confident saying I can live without ABS on this car.
As some have mentioned, the factory ABS/DSC systems are horribly conservative in their application points. They have to be conservative in order to keep people out of trouble. Once removed, it is possible to find the actual limits of the car (road coarse, BIG open parking lot, auto-x event, etc.) and truly understand the capabilities of the vehicle. The fallacy that people seem to miss is that just because someone knows their vehicles limits does not mean they drive anywhere near them. My last car was a 650RWHP open track prepped Camaro that could easily exceed 1G on a skid pad but it never got pushed NEAR that on the street. For me, knowing the vehicles capabilities is plenty for me. I don't need to go drive to those capabilities every day (too risky, too stressful, too tiring, and too much wear/tear on the vehicle).
So... about THIS car:
The DSC WILL be going away as a result of the LS1 swap. I am using a cable throttle body and a stand alone ECU (this is a necessity in order to make the swap, not to get rid of the DSC... getting rid of the DSC is a bonus). Because the BMW systems will in no way be tied to/in control of the engine, the engine will be regulated only by my foot, AS GOD INTENDED ENGINES SHOULD BE! My feeling has always been that honestly boys and girls, if you need DSC to think for you/save your butt, get out and walk :thumbsdown:
The brake system is getting a complete overhaul with big breaks, a mustang hydro-boost, and appropriately sized master cylinder. The ABS will be ditched to improve responsiveness and allow for proper proportioning of brake bias via an adjustable proportioning valve.
I am up in the air on just running the Z4 "manual" rack or swapping to Z4M hydraulic rack (the electric assist has GOT TO GO!). It will really boil down to a decision of if I need/want the hydraulic assist or not. The easiest thing to try is unplug the electric assist motor and go drive it. I prefer the feedback of a manual rack but big wide tires and parallel parking can be a pain :headbang:
So, going back to the only two questions I asked:
and
Again, I'm trying to understand the routing of information within the car, not looking for opinions on the sensibility of removing these
First... to get some points out of the way (and hopefully put the rants to rest):
I admit that ABS is an excellent addition for passenger cars, SUVs, trucks, etc. and while I would never remove it from my Suburban, it adds a HORRIBLE feel to a tight performance oriented car's braking system. With a solid race prepped (non-ABS) braking system it's possible to feel the pads meet the rotor (not going to get this with factory master/lines/pads/etc either). When I hear a person say "the ABS does not affect the braking feel", I KNOW they have never experienced the difference of a back to back test, same exact car with/without ABS pump block in-line. It's night and day.... go test it..... end of discussion....
Further, seeing that I live in the Sonoran Desert where it's sunny 360 days out of the year (and 100+ degrees F 4 months out of the year), gets 8" (0.208meters) of rain a year (most all of it in one month), and that I only drive the car when I choose to, I'm pretty confident saying I can live without ABS on this car.
As some have mentioned, the factory ABS/DSC systems are horribly conservative in their application points. They have to be conservative in order to keep people out of trouble. Once removed, it is possible to find the actual limits of the car (road coarse, BIG open parking lot, auto-x event, etc.) and truly understand the capabilities of the vehicle. The fallacy that people seem to miss is that just because someone knows their vehicles limits does not mean they drive anywhere near them. My last car was a 650RWHP open track prepped Camaro that could easily exceed 1G on a skid pad but it never got pushed NEAR that on the street. For me, knowing the vehicles capabilities is plenty for me. I don't need to go drive to those capabilities every day (too risky, too stressful, too tiring, and too much wear/tear on the vehicle).
So... about THIS car:
The DSC WILL be going away as a result of the LS1 swap. I am using a cable throttle body and a stand alone ECU (this is a necessity in order to make the swap, not to get rid of the DSC... getting rid of the DSC is a bonus). Because the BMW systems will in no way be tied to/in control of the engine, the engine will be regulated only by my foot, AS GOD INTENDED ENGINES SHOULD BE! My feeling has always been that honestly boys and girls, if you need DSC to think for you/save your butt, get out and walk :thumbsdown:
The brake system is getting a complete overhaul with big breaks, a mustang hydro-boost, and appropriately sized master cylinder. The ABS will be ditched to improve responsiveness and allow for proper proportioning of brake bias via an adjustable proportioning valve.
I am up in the air on just running the Z4 "manual" rack or swapping to Z4M hydraulic rack (the electric assist has GOT TO GO!). It will really boil down to a decision of if I need/want the hydraulic assist or not. The easiest thing to try is unplug the electric assist motor and go drive it. I prefer the feedback of a manual rack but big wide tires and parallel parking can be a pain :headbang:
So, going back to the only two questions I asked:
and
Again, I'm trying to understand the routing of information within the car, not looking for opinions on the sensibility of removing these
moonshine said:
Bit harsh IMO - the OP cares, and like quite a few on here has decided to take his modding a little further than a stubby and a change of wheels.
v8z4 - can't help with your questions, but hopefully one of our technically minded members will be able to help
By the sounds of the area you live in, decent cooling on the brakes will be of paramount importance if you're using it harshly.
I'd perhaps think of going down the lines of some good quality grooved/vented discs along with possibly looking at some cooling ducts from the fog light holes. Not sure how possible this is on Z4's but it was easy enough on VX220s.
I'd perhaps think of going down the lines of some good quality grooved/vented discs along with possibly looking at some cooling ducts from the fog light holes. Not sure how possible this is on Z4's but it was easy enough on VX220s.
Would be nice to know when you're next going out in the wet with these little kill joys turned off while you test out why you don't need them, coz I'll stay at home.
If you ever watch what really catches people out is not the first loss of control of the rear end as most of the time this is tamed, it's if & when the car bites the other way should you over correct / unbalance the power... then all hell brakes loose. On a track you have a bit more space to catch it, most roads only have one lane, your lane... everything else is there to wipe you out.
Like the simple DTC off in the dry, but hold my hand up & say not good enough to drive it as I do with the rest of the lifesavers turned off, I'm on too much borrowed time as it is already
If you ever watch what really catches people out is not the first loss of control of the rear end as most of the time this is tamed, it's if & when the car bites the other way should you over correct / unbalance the power... then all hell brakes loose. On a track you have a bit more space to catch it, most roads only have one lane, your lane... everything else is there to wipe you out.
Like the simple DTC off in the dry, but hold my hand up & say not good enough to drive it as I do with the rest of the lifesavers turned off, I'm on too much borrowed time as it is already
The OP baffles me.
Why buy a Zed if you are going to turn it into a Model-T?
Maybe you should sell it and get something else, a Westfield maybe.
A TVR would suit, I reckon.
Gotta say V8Z4, I think your plans are daft.
Why buy a Zed if you are going to turn it into a Model-T?
Maybe you should sell it and get something else, a Westfield maybe.
A TVR would suit, I reckon.
Gotta say V8Z4, I think your plans are daft.
