My AP racing kit is fitted.... NOT happy :( => NOW happy :)

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Franzino

Active member
So today I picked up my Z4M from the shop that’s also an AP Racing dealer. They have installed a lot of BBK’s (mostly AP racing) on other cars and are specialized in BMW M models. The owner has a track prepped E36 M3 with AP Racing and some other BMW’s…. So they know what they are doing and I have found only positive comments about this shop on the internet.

After a long wait, the AP kit (front and rear) with Pagid Blue was finally under my car. After reading so many positive comments about AP n this forum and others, I was really exited. This Sunday I wanted to go with some friends to the NS and put them to the real test (trackdays are the only reason I have bought them). I drove to the quiet harbor nearby and did the bedding in procedure as described on this Forum and other websites…

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The result; the AP brakes don't feel good! I still have to push the pedal way down; there is no initial bite, not a nice feel in modulation, no big gain in stopping power… To be honest they feel like crap! OK, maybe everything needs time to settle in, but I was under the impression that after the bedding in procedure they should work great and I did the bedding in procedure the correct way. At this point the OEM Z4M brakes felt way better… :(

Everything was fitted according to AP racing specifications, but when applying the described torque on this bolt on the calipers =>

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After a small test drive the brake oil just keeps coming out of this bolt. So they tightened it a bit more then the AP manual stated, did it again and again…and it still leaks a little brake oil there. The dealer said that he had this problem with every AP kit they have installed the last couple of years and at one point it will stop leaking…

Is all this normal?

So it sounds like a trip back to the shop again... It’s sad to say, but at this point I was happier with the oem Z4M brakes and at this point I’m starting to regret buying the expensive AP!!! :cry:

The bedding in procedure I followed was this one.
10 stops from 60-10mph in straight after each other order, the pads heat to max and transfer a lovely even pad layer to the rotor, the usually look bright blue when you have finished, sometimes they smoke a little but performance actually gets better with every single brake from 60.. you can feel the pads heating and getting into their stride........
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After this 10 stops; I drove for 10minutes to let the brakes cool down…

One positive things to end my complaining; my winter wheels also fit with the front AP caliper…
 
Perhaps there's some air bubbles in the system still? :idunno:

Have you tried to contact AP Racing direct and see what they have to say? I'm sure members which have actually had AP's installed will come along soon to help. :thumbsup:
 
WOWWWW!!! not good...

i can hand on my heart tell you their is an issue with your install, my pedal is rock solid...... at first i had alittle weap from the nipples, after i took all the wheels off i realise the nipples was full of brake fluid from the bleeding process, alittle tissue put in the middle of the nipple i soaked up the fluid and never had a single issue even after stops from 150mph........ this is simply not an issue, they should be torqued to 17nm NO MORE. EVER. This will crack the castings.....

Re the brakes bleeding is VERY important and must be done in a certain sequence outlined in the manual, i had to do mine 4 times, bubbles will hide in all the nucks and crannies of the caliper....

i can however tell you what your experiencing is simply not what i get, i get rock solid pedal, beautiful pedal feel, and braking power that makes you feel sick (infact it did make my ex girlfriend physically sick).

your shop have let you down and need to re-bleed, then re bleed again, your rotors are nicely bed in i can see.... The feel with this brakes is the best bit...... soo much confidence in every sense, your experience just isnt what im getting at all, i think you'll find the other AP braking kit owners will say they same ;-) i simply dont understand why any shop or AP dealer would allow you to leave with a substandard pedal feel????
 
one thing i will say automatic bleeders do not work well with these ap kits, i used a manual kit wit my girl pumping the pedal, i also used a rubber mallet to gently "tap" the caliper to move those stubborn bubbles then re bled a good few times...

a very close second on my faves mods EVER....

Edit : your fluid coming through the nipple will still be fluid left in the top of the nipple and the threads, use alittle scrunched up tissue to adsorb the fluid in the middle of the nipple, this will stop but you may get a sweat from the threads over the first few weeks, again this will stop.....
 
I have AP's on my CSL and the initial bite is a bit to much tbh, I find myself bouncing off the windscreen until I get use to it. It sounds like your brakes have not been bleed properly or don't have enough fluid in the system. Z4M requires a pressurized system to do it properly, does the garage have this equipment.

The stopping power and initial bite is a massive and noticeable improvement over stock brakes.

Re, your bleeding nips. I haven't noticed it on my car, which has front and rear AP's. You'd expect this on worn calipers when the bleed nipple is corroded, not with new gear.
 
toplad said:
I have AP's on my CSL and the initial bite is a bit to much tbh, I find myself bouncing off the windscreen until I get use to it. It sounds like your brakes have not been bleed properly or don't have enough fluid in the system. Z4M requires a pressurized system to do it properly, does the garage have this equipment.

The stopping power and initial bite is a massive and noticeable improvement over stock brakes.

Re, your bleeding nips. I haven't noticed it on my car, which has front and rear AP's. You'd expect this on worn calipers when the bleed nipple is corroded, not with new gear.
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the z4m does not require a pressured system..... ive bled the brakes on this car about 10 times now using my 1 man bleeder system :-)
on a brand new braking system you will find the nipples weep alittle, the nipples require 17nm, soak up the fluid in the middle of the nipple with some twisted tissue or rag, jobs a gud un!!

i agree on the initial pedal bite, its RAZOR sharp.
 
Beedub said:
i agree on the initial pedal bite, its RAZOR sharp.
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+1

The only other one's I've experienced that would make me not buy APs when the time comes, are the Alcons on my mates CSL.
 
mmm-five said:
Beedub said:
i agree on the initial pedal bite, its RAZOR sharp.
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+1

The only other one's I've experienced that would make me not buy APs when the time comes, are the Alcons on my mates CSL.
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oww yess alcons are AWESOME!!! having driven a GTR with alcon supersport i was blown away, the also look about as cool as brakes can look as well!! fabulous kit!!
 
Completely unrelated - but is that some magenetic stone guard or so on the rear wheelarche?
 
They are themselves, but there is metal behind it so a strong magnet? :)
 
Beedub said:
WOWWWW!!! not good...

i can hand on my heart tell you their is an issue with your install, my pedal is rock solid...... at first i had alittle weap from the nipples, after i took all the wheels off i realise the nipples was full of brake fluid from the bleeding process, alittle tissue put in the middle of the nipple i soaked up the fluid and never had a single issue even after stops from 150mph........ this is simply not an issue, they should be torqued to 17nm NO MORE. EVER. This will crack the castings.....
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The bleeding nipples worrie mee indeed. In my opinion; if the manual says 17nm…this is for a reason and in my opinion tightening them can damage things. But if the shop says that there is always a problem with them and they keep bleeding brake oil….then there is not so much to do then tighten them some more. They are now tight as hell and there a still spills of brake oil…

I also noticed that the brake pads keep slightly rubbing the discs when not braking. Is this supposed to be…or is it normal with a completely new set up? And yes; the Pagid Blue also started to make noise. At this point I can not say one positive thing about the brakes and they are making me crazy… Car is going back to the shop tomorrow! It's a help full guy that I trust, so I hope everything gets sorted out...
 
Franzino said:
Beedub said:
WOWWWW!!! not good...

i can hand on my heart tell you their is an issue with your install, my pedal is rock solid...... at first i had alittle weap from the nipples, after i took all the wheels off i realise the nipples was full of brake fluid from the bleeding process, alittle tissue put in the middle of the nipple i soaked up the fluid and never had a single issue even after stops from 150mph........ this is simply not an issue, they should be torqued to 17nm NO MORE. EVER. This will crack the castings.....
Click to expand...

The bleeding nipples worrie mee indeed. In my opinion; if the manual says 17nm…this is for a reason and in my opinion tightening them can damage things. But if the shop says that there is always a problem with them and they keep bleeding brake oil….then there is not so much to do then tighten them some more. They are now tight as hell and there a still spills of brake oil…

I also noticed that the brake pads keep slightly rubbing the discs when not braking. Is this supposed to be…or is it normal with a completely new set up? And yes; the Pagid Blue also started to make noise. At this point I can not say one positive thing about the brakes and they are making me crazy… Car is going back to the shop tomorrow! It's a help full guy that I trust, so I hope everything gets sorted out...
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unfortunatly with some mods things take alittle tweeking to get it right...... thats just life..... hell dont EVER buy a supercharger as that took around 6 months of tweaking to get it perfect, lol...

Lets just hope the nipples havent been overightened to the point of the casting being cracked, 17nm for that tiny nut is MORE than enough and im really suprised a top shop would advise to over tighten that part which AP specifically mention to no go over 17nm..... The little spills of fluid from them is normal....they just need the insides cleaned up like ive mentioned in the last 2 post ive made ;-)

the pagid blues are silent, ive got a good few miles on mine but they get a regular beating, infact ive had them smoking on 4 seperate occasions, they ares still silent but werent when they were brand new and yes they rub when they are brand new, this will stop. The brake feel your getting though :-( damnn not good... lets just hope you dont have a damaged caliper from over tightening those nipples.... your tightening down a spherical shaped unit into a spherical shaped seating, their simply is nothing that torquing these down more will do other than damage the threads......

tweak tweak tweak...... mods sometimes dont go right first time.... be patient ;-) they look awesome on your car btw!! once you get these sorted you will be really happy, those pads will give you silent consistant performance that will blow your mind...
 
Beedub said:
tweak tweak tweak...... mods sometimes dont go right first time.... be patient ;-) they look awesome on your car btw!! once you get these sorted you will be really happy, those pads will give you silent consistant performance that will blow your mind...
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Thanks for the advice and input..! :thumbsup:

Indeed; I know sometimes mods need some tweaking, but I did not expect this kind of problems. I like my car's oem or with oem extra's. This AP kit is the biggest and most expensive mod I have ever done on a car. The look never interested me...and for me it looks ok. Nothing extraordinary, the oem CSL wheels are the thing that make the car look great for me. The only reason I bought this expensive AP upgrade is the better brake power and less fading...that you guys have gained with it... For the moment the only thing I gained is indeed the look and that's just the thing that does not concern me.
 
the kit i had came with ferodo ds2500 and the initial bite is razor sharp. had new discs replaced last week and bedded them in right away.

i did about 10 runs from 100mph-50mph as there aren't any appropriate roads to do the 60mph-10mph procedure.

the initial bite is not as sharp as before but i'm guessing i need to run them more. time will tell. will keep you posted. :D
 
Noiticed the bleed nipples are duraluminium or similar when normally they are copper or similar derivative, the softer metal against the caliper metal helps create the seal. Maybe nothing in it and I'm sure AP with all their experience know what they are doing but aluminium has a habit of corroding especially when touching another metal (galvanic corrosion, 108s etc.....). Also no rubber caps for the bleed nipples to keep the crud out.

Agree with others just need bleeding properly.
 
AlanJ said:
Noiticed the bleed nipples are duraluminium or similar when normally they are copper or similar derivative, the softer metal against the caliper metal helps create the seal. Maybe nothing in it and I'm sure AP with all their experience know what they are doing but aluminium has a habit of corroding especially when touching another metal (galvanic corrosion, 108s etc.....). Also no rubber caps for the bleed nipples to keep the crud out.

Agree with others just need bleeding properly.
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hi allan........they do come with a proper dust cap for the caliper to protect the bleed nipple.

Fran this is a properly bed in brake setup :-) notice rotors with a nice blue finish to them, nice pad material transfer, the brake pads at this point were smoking.....and still provdiding perfect braking...i couldnt touch the wheel at this time as it was so hot.

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I would say ............ (like I would know) ......... pedal travel is air in the system, without a doubt.
Bleeding them is a proper job that has to be done right.
I have a simple vacuum system that does the job perfectly.

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Initial bite .............hmmmmmmmmm
might get my bum kicked here, but ............
bedding in means different things for different people. I race bikes ...... (ok everyone knows by now) ..... and I know by experience it is so easy to glaze pads ..... and glazed pads effectively cut "bite" by more than 50%.
Other thing, and probably not an issue here ....... but pad type - a racing setup will generally use a "racing" compound ....... and generally, they dont work unless they are hot - when you are braking hard for corners on a track every few seconds, they stay hot all the time - you will never get them hot enough on the road. The pads I race with give less than10% performance at ambient temps ........

Weeping nipples ....... all I can say is "bollox" ........ they should only be nipped up and should never ever leak. Residue after bleeding etc as the guys say can be cleaned up - brake cleaner is best - and this should have been done by the fitter. To say it will stop over time is ridiculous, that implies that residue in the oil will fill up the seal area over time - and you dont want that kind of seal when on the brakes at 100 mph.

The AP system is excellent - and if its not - something is wrong.

Brakes, like tyres are part of the "keep you alive" system, so accept no compromise.

ok .... thats me done .................
 
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