My AP racing kit is fitted.... NOT happy :( => NOW happy :)
- Thread starter Franzino
- Start date
UPDATE
So my car went back to the shop. They told me that they re-bleed the brake system and also tightened the bleeding nipples a little more to try and stop the brake oil from leaking. I went for a test drive and that day there was a massive improvement in braking. The difference was night and day from before. I was starting to feel a lot happier with my purchase….and was full of confidence for my trip to the Nurburgring the next day.
The next day I took the car out of the garage…and went for a drive. I went to the Nurburgring to drive two rounds on the track. After the first round I noticed the nipples are still bleeding a small amount of brake fluid. I cleaned it up and went for a second round. The braking on the track was good. The pedal feel was good and the braking power also felt good (good, but nothing shocking). The initial bite was a little less then the day before. One thing that was really noticeable is that the AP brakes never faded and at one time I even made an extra effort to make them fade. It did not work, they started smelling a little but they never faded! Way better heat resistant then the OEM brakes (but maybe this is the biggest achievement from the Pagid brake pads and not the AP calipers and AP discs?)… IMO; at this time the braking power is better then the OEM brakes, but the fading is a massive improvement. IMO my AP brakes are better then OEM, but I still expected more (in terms of braking power, braking feel and initial bite). Maybe I expected too much?
The week after the trip to the Nurburgring I made a visit to a guy who has a M3 CSL with the same AP braking system and he made a test drive with my Z4M. Het told me my brakes feel good, but that they should indeed brake a little harder. There is an initial bite, but after this stage there should be more braking power and more braking feel (that’s what I was thinking also). He told me that maybe my brake pads still need some settling in. At that time I covered 500 miles, did 1 bedding in session and 2 rounds of Nurburgring. That the bleeding nipples are still sweating a small amount of brake oil is also not normal in his opinion…and he never had this problem. He also did not know what the problem could be…but he could not believe there would be a problem with all the four AP calipers.
I also called Thorney Motorsport and Simpson Motorsport. They were really helpful at the phone (and I did not buy the brakes with them). They told me the bleeding nipples spilling brake oil is something they never heard. They have a massive amount of experience with AP brakes that they gathered over the years. Belgium is a lot smaller then the UK and AP brakes are not so commonly sold in my country. Still IMO there is nothing wrong with the Belgian shop where I have bought my AP brakes. After doing some research in advance they were one of the best shop around here that was experienced with aftermarket brakes and BMW M-cars and. Never heard any complains about them and they are helpful in resolving my problems.
(even at higher speeds they squeal). At this time I did the bedding procedure 3 times and the result is always the same squealing noise. Some people say its normal for those RS 4-2 brake pads, others say it should be less and others say they should be almost silent after the bedding in. Don’t know what the truth is, but this loud squealing is really annoying. But that’s another issue…
Today I took off the rubber protective caps to see how the bleeding nipples look… The rear bleeding nipples are dry; the front looked like this….
The bleeding nipples are now super tight, if they go any tighter then this, I think the bold is going to brake of and then the problems really start. I went inside the bleeding nipple with a tissue and the inside was dry.
Conclusion; I would be happy; if the AP brakes would brake a littlle harder, the brake pads be more silent, the bleeding nipples stop sweating and have the insurance that nothing got damaged from tightening the bleeding nipples more then 17nm
I have talked to my shop again, and there are only two things I can do… Keep everything like it is and hope that one day the nipples are completely dry or take off the entire AP brakes and send them back to AP to get them investigated… This means that my car is back at the shop to have the OEM brakes refitted, then I have to wait what the result is from AP (I’m worried this is going to be a long wait)… And after this the AP brakes should be fitted back onto my car… Hopefully with the issues resolved. I’m little worried that they are send to AP, then months later they are back on the car and everything is exactly the same…
Also; this means a lot of wasted time for me. My car has to be at the shop at least two more times. I don’t have time for all this hassle. I bought the AP brakes, because I thought this would mean a hassle free purchase. And then there is the question of who is going to pay for all the labors of work that’s needed to fit and refit the AP and OEM brakes…?
First thing I’m going to do is trying to meet with someone who has the same brakes and to a back to back test run and see what the difference is between the two.`
At this time I must say I’m not 100% satisfied with my AP purchase…and I don’t know what the best thing is to do!
So my car went back to the shop. They told me that they re-bleed the brake system and also tightened the bleeding nipples a little more to try and stop the brake oil from leaking. I went for a test drive and that day there was a massive improvement in braking. The difference was night and day from before. I was starting to feel a lot happier with my purchase….and was full of confidence for my trip to the Nurburgring the next day.
The next day I took the car out of the garage…and went for a drive. I went to the Nurburgring to drive two rounds on the track. After the first round I noticed the nipples are still bleeding a small amount of brake fluid. I cleaned it up and went for a second round. The braking on the track was good. The pedal feel was good and the braking power also felt good (good, but nothing shocking). The initial bite was a little less then the day before. One thing that was really noticeable is that the AP brakes never faded and at one time I even made an extra effort to make them fade. It did not work, they started smelling a little but they never faded! Way better heat resistant then the OEM brakes (but maybe this is the biggest achievement from the Pagid brake pads and not the AP calipers and AP discs?)… IMO; at this time the braking power is better then the OEM brakes, but the fading is a massive improvement. IMO my AP brakes are better then OEM, but I still expected more (in terms of braking power, braking feel and initial bite). Maybe I expected too much?
The week after the trip to the Nurburgring I made a visit to a guy who has a M3 CSL with the same AP braking system and he made a test drive with my Z4M. Het told me my brakes feel good, but that they should indeed brake a little harder. There is an initial bite, but after this stage there should be more braking power and more braking feel (that’s what I was thinking also). He told me that maybe my brake pads still need some settling in. At that time I covered 500 miles, did 1 bedding in session and 2 rounds of Nurburgring. That the bleeding nipples are still sweating a small amount of brake oil is also not normal in his opinion…and he never had this problem. He also did not know what the problem could be…but he could not believe there would be a problem with all the four AP calipers.
I also called Thorney Motorsport and Simpson Motorsport. They were really helpful at the phone (and I did not buy the brakes with them). They told me the bleeding nipples spilling brake oil is something they never heard. They have a massive amount of experience with AP brakes that they gathered over the years. Belgium is a lot smaller then the UK and AP brakes are not so commonly sold in my country. Still IMO there is nothing wrong with the Belgian shop where I have bought my AP brakes. After doing some research in advance they were one of the best shop around here that was experienced with aftermarket brakes and BMW M-cars and. Never heard any complains about them and they are helpful in resolving my problems.
So this weekend I took off all my wheels and cleaned the calipers and every bleeding nipple. I went with some tissue inside the nipple to absorb every drop of brake oil that was still in there (and there was some small amount inside). After this I went to the harbor to do the bedding in procedure again. The Pagid RS 4-2 (blue) brake pads are still making a massive amount of noise. Really hateful when driving with the roof open at slow speeds
(even at higher speeds they squeal). At this time I did the bedding procedure 3 times and the result is always the same squealing noise. Some people say its normal for those RS 4-2 brake pads, others say it should be less and others say they should be almost silent after the bedding in. Don’t know what the truth is, but this loud squealing is really annoying. But that’s another issue…Today I took off the rubber protective caps to see how the bleeding nipples look… The rear bleeding nipples are dry; the front looked like this….
The bleeding nipples are now super tight, if they go any tighter then this, I think the bold is going to brake of and then the problems really start. I went inside the bleeding nipple with a tissue and the inside was dry.
Conclusion; I would be happy; if the AP brakes would brake a littlle harder, the brake pads be more silent, the bleeding nipples stop sweating and have the insurance that nothing got damaged from tightening the bleeding nipples more then 17nm
I have talked to my shop again, and there are only two things I can do… Keep everything like it is and hope that one day the nipples are completely dry or take off the entire AP brakes and send them back to AP to get them investigated… This means that my car is back at the shop to have the OEM brakes refitted, then I have to wait what the result is from AP (I’m worried this is going to be a long wait)… And after this the AP brakes should be fitted back onto my car… Hopefully with the issues resolved. I’m little worried that they are send to AP, then months later they are back on the car and everything is exactly the same…
Also; this means a lot of wasted time for me. My car has to be at the shop at least two more times. I don’t have time for all this hassle. I bought the AP brakes, because I thought this would mean a hassle free purchase. And then there is the question of who is going to pay for all the labors of work that’s needed to fit and refit the AP and OEM brakes…?
First thing I’m going to do is trying to meet with someone who has the same brakes and to a back to back test run and see what the difference is between the two.`
At this time I must say I’m not 100% satisfied with my AP purchase…and I don’t know what the best thing is to do!
damnn franzino this REALLY sucks and im so sorry for your troubles.....i can only go on my experience and its a million miles away fro your experience im afraid.
my kit was has been completly trouble free, and a VERY second close to the supercharger for sheer difference its made to the car, definatly an awesome modification, have you REALLY got these pads hot?? during my bed in procedures they reguarly smoke, and the edges of the pads are charred, look up the stoptech bed in procedure just in case, i bed mine in on track usually to get these bad boys really working, they need temperature for sure!!
i am however 110% satisfied with this setup!!
like youve stated this is definatly not a normal issue, im praying that nothing has been damaged in the caliper due to the over Tqing of the bleed nipples...... either way, good luck, unfortunatly modding sucks..... my car was down for months during the s/c install with MANY long early trips to simpson to get things right, not to mention countless hours on my drive and in my garage sorting little issues, again good luck on getting this sorted, i feel your pain after all these months of waiting for parts :-(
my kit was has been completly trouble free, and a VERY second close to the supercharger for sheer difference its made to the car, definatly an awesome modification, have you REALLY got these pads hot?? during my bed in procedures they reguarly smoke, and the edges of the pads are charred, look up the stoptech bed in procedure just in case, i bed mine in on track usually to get these bad boys really working, they need temperature for sure!!
i am however 110% satisfied with this setup!!
like youve stated this is definatly not a normal issue, im praying that nothing has been damaged in the caliper due to the over Tqing of the bleed nipples...... either way, good luck, unfortunatly modding sucks..... my car was down for months during the s/c install with MANY long early trips to simpson to get things right, not to mention countless hours on my drive and in my garage sorting little issues, again good luck on getting this sorted, i feel your pain after all these months of waiting for parts :-(
Hi Franzino. It could jsut be a bad set up or a fault in the actual kit or they simply sent the wrong kit or part of (for the M3 instead of the Z4?). Stupid little errors do happen and goind by everyone the way the car brakes should definatly feel different. I only have braided lines fluid and RS29 pads but I can assure you the cars brakes harder and the feel is much improved, especailly on the track (does not go mushy.)
good luch and keep us posted.
good luch and keep us posted.
Update on the AP brakes...
What has happened after my last post? My car went back for two brake bleeds in total and I did the bedding process two times. The braking became better and after a wile the bleeding nipples also stopped sweating the small amounts of brake oil. For the moment the nipples are completely dry!
Considering the bad start of my AP brakes; at the time I was still not 100% sure if my brakes were performing 100% correct. I don’t have another car with AP brakes to compare them with and I have never driven a car equipped with these brakes. So I let 3 different guys who know AP racing and have AP racing under their own BMW M3 drive my Z4M. The result was; my AP BBK performs like it should do. Great news! So in the end; it was me that expected a little too much from them. I expected them to perform exactly the same as the brakes on a Porsche GT3 that I have driving in the past. This was a little to optimistic from me!
In the meantime I did 3 intensive track days. The brakes performed absolutely great, never had any fading and always the same stopping power. I could brake the same as a race prepared Mini and brake later then a 996 Porsche GT3 (or maybe I had less fear of doing so). After the last track day...it hit me and I thought damn these brakes are great and I can brake really late. Strangely; they now brake even better then they did before the track days. I have more initial bite then I had before the track days. For the moment the brakes squeal a little less then before, but they still squeal with normal road use (could some copper grease on the back of the Pagid pads make this better?). If this would stop or be a little less then the brakes would be awesome instead of fantastic
Some pictures from the last couple of weeks
Ecuyers
Wet Nurburgring
Zolder
What has happened after my last post? My car went back for two brake bleeds in total and I did the bedding process two times. The braking became better and after a wile the bleeding nipples also stopped sweating the small amounts of brake oil. For the moment the nipples are completely dry!
Considering the bad start of my AP brakes; at the time I was still not 100% sure if my brakes were performing 100% correct. I don’t have another car with AP brakes to compare them with and I have never driven a car equipped with these brakes. So I let 3 different guys who know AP racing and have AP racing under their own BMW M3 drive my Z4M. The result was; my AP BBK performs like it should do. Great news! So in the end; it was me that expected a little too much from them. I expected them to perform exactly the same as the brakes on a Porsche GT3 that I have driving in the past. This was a little to optimistic from me!
In the meantime I did 3 intensive track days. The brakes performed absolutely great, never had any fading and always the same stopping power. I could brake the same as a race prepared Mini and brake later then a 996 Porsche GT3 (or maybe I had less fear of doing so). After the last track day...it hit me and I thought damn these brakes are great and I can brake really late. Strangely; they now brake even better then they did before the track days. I have more initial bite then I had before the track days. For the moment the brakes squeal a little less then before, but they still squeal with normal road use (could some copper grease on the back of the Pagid pads make this better?). If this would stop or be a little less then the brakes would be awesome instead of fantastic
Some pictures from the last couple of weeks
Ecuyers
Wet Nurburgring
Zolder
Great photos Franzino and glad you've got the AP's sorted ! 
Its pretty terrible imo, how you could have so many fundamental issues with a brake kit from such a reputable maker. Glad you got it sorted anyway!
It sounds like the thermal expansion of the aluminium caliper could have been causing a loosening of the bleed nipple...?
It sounds like the thermal expansion of the aluminium caliper could have been causing a loosening of the bleed nipple...?
ed, its very difficult to judge a product with knowing how it was installed in the first place..... now as nothing on this kit was changed from the original hardware that was once deemed faulty,its now fine on exactly the same hardware, logic would tell me this was an install issue ;-) i took a full day from 6am to 7pm installing mine myself for this very reason, bled the system 4-5 times, tapped the calipers gently with a rubber mallet to move those air bubbles, and the thing was nothing short of awesome.....
The best brakes ive ever used!! Ever. including the 6pots on the gtr which was good, these make them look shite, but i suppose im braking much less of a car.
OP re the pads, im on exactly the same pads, youve seen all my videos, and you'll mine dont make a squeak, maybe thats because of the prolonged beating they get?? They were noisey until i got them smoking, after they cooked out they have never made a noise since.
The best brakes ive ever used!! Ever. including the 6pots on the gtr which was good, these make them look shite, but i suppose im braking much less of a car.
OP re the pads, im on exactly the same pads, youve seen all my videos, and you'll mine dont make a squeak, maybe thats because of the prolonged beating they get?? They were noisey until i got them smoking, after they cooked out they have never made a noise since.
I have 4 pot APs all round on my Nob now but despite an 500kg+ weight difference, nothing touches the APs I had on my Z4M. Awesome awesome kit.
EdButler said:
Today at the NS I have met a guy with a Z4 who had exactly the same experience with his AP kit. At first he was not happy with the braking and the nipples also kept bleeding...some time later they stopped leaking and they started breaking better and better. Now he loves them... He has Pagid Yellow, because the DS 2500 was crap on track.
playalistic said:
now... as you had yours installed @ simpson i know you had a 100% functioning kit...... my experience is as yours, never driven a better braked setup...... Ever, and ive been lucky enough to drive/own some serious machinery over the years....one thing i notice about these brakes is they must be used as intended.... hard hard hard...... otherwise they get noisey... the hotter they are the better they get.....the pedal i feel is ROCK solid, its taken me a while to get used to..
main thing is the op is getting the experience he should be......if your pedal is rock solid, retardation is eye popping, your NOT having leaking nipples, then youve got a properly working AP setup......
AP's are good.
I had them on my TVR Tamora and it trumps the Ap's on my CSL, which are still pretty good, but on the TVR it was like you were able to stop from 60mph in just over a car length, it seriously impressive. You could feels your eye's popping out/forward, its funny but the wife didn't find it that impressive as a passenger
I had them on my TVR Tamora and it trumps the Ap's on my CSL, which are still pretty good, but on the TVR it was like you were able to stop from 60mph in just over a car length, it seriously impressive. You could feels your eye's popping out/forward, its funny but the wife didn't find it that impressive as a passenger
Maybe the difference between an ABS fitted car (BMW) and a car without (TVR)...toplad said:AP's are good.
I had them on my TVR Tamora and it trumps the Ap's on my CSL, which are still pretty good, but on the TVR it was like you were able to stop from 60mph in just over a car length, it seriously impressive. You could feels your eye's popping out/forward, its funny but the wife didn't find it that impressive as a passenger
Franzino said:Maybe the difference between an ABS fitted car (BMW) and a car without (TVR)...toplad said:AP's are good.
I had them on my TVR Tamora and it trumps the Ap's on my CSL, which are still pretty good, but on the TVR it was like you were able to stop from 60mph in just over a car length, it seriously impressive. You could feels your eye's popping out/forward, its funny but the wife didn't find it that impressive as a passenger
Or what about the 200 odd kilograms difference?
ga41 said:Franzino said:Maybe the difference between an ABS fitted car (BMW) and a car without (TVR)...toplad said:AP's are good.
I had them on my TVR Tamora and it trumps the Ap's on my CSL, which are still pretty good, but on the TVR it was like you were able to stop from 60mph in just over a car length, it seriously impressive. You could feels your eye's popping out/forward, its funny but the wife didn't find it that impressive as a passenger
Or what about the 200 odd kilograms difference?
