Malaysian Airlines 777 down over Ukraine
- Thread starter Geezah
- Start date
TitanTim said:
Tim,
Surely it's showing footage of a missile launcher on a truck being driven.
Anything more is just speculation.
Agree. There's no confirmation of where that video was shot, and it only lasts about 3 or 4 seconds. Investigators need to be to the scene ASAP - even if the black boxes have been removed, if that aircraft was taken down by a missile then they'll be able to confirm it very quickly.
I do think that the language used by Putin is potentially quite telling though - he's normally not shy about going on the offensive when plausible deniability is absolutely assured, but this time he's stayed well away from direct accusation, instead talking about Ukraine being responsible for incidents in it's airspace.
It may have been a simple - though tragic - case of mistaken identity by people playing with deadly toys they don't fully know how to operate, but accountability lies with those who armed the rebels if they are the ones that took it down...
I do think that the language used by Putin is potentially quite telling though - he's normally not shy about going on the offensive when plausible deniability is absolutely assured, but this time he's stayed well away from direct accusation, instead talking about Ukraine being responsible for incidents in it's airspace.
It may have been a simple - though tragic - case of mistaken identity by people playing with deadly toys they don't fully know how to operate, but accountability lies with those who armed the rebels if they are the ones that took it down...
Theres photos of a BUK missile launcher with a pile of missiles in the town of Torez just hours before the Malaysian flight was downed, the same launcher was seen afterwards heading for the Russian border and hasn't been seen since. I doubt there are many if any of those launchers in the Ukraine.
Tim.
Tim.
Bing said:
Its interesting that when the initial revolt happened western governments were backing it, even helping it, despite the heavily nazi themed riots. Now these fascists are in power and trying to exert their 'cleansing' on other parts of Ukraine with clear military power against civilian populations, those people are labelled 'terrorists' for resisting, or 'Russian backed rebels' by the western media. The UN was clear in Libya, imposing a no-fly zone to protect civilians from military air assaults, yet its encouraged in Ukraine.
Western powers need to stop playing puppet master and covertly trying to replace leaders with western-interest-aligned leaders, causing untold havoc along the way. What business does the US/UN/EU have in sending CIA/Money/Equipment to help the new 'Ukraine Govt' plan attacks against the uprising civilian population?
When Crimea lawfully chose to join Russia, voting almost unanimously to do so its labelled 'illegal' and stated Russia planned it all, yet Kosovo’s secession from Serbia was under similar circumstances and backed by western powers, who gave military support to do so.
Greatest threat to world peace - Western interfering, covertly and overtly.
/Rant
Back on topic.
Its amazing how quickly 'educated' and 'intelligent' people jump to conclusions based on spotty 'facts' provided by propaganda fed to the media. Decisions are made well before facts are proven, or more likely quietly retracted or replaced as is often the case with the media. Propaganda is a dangerous thing.
T2FFN said:
I don't think propaganda has anything to do with it in this case except to find out what happened ASAP and ALL the evidence points to Russia supplying or providing a BUK missile launcher and every chance Russian personnel to work the thing. Accident or not the finger is pointing at Russia.
Isn't Ukraine an idependent sovreighn state?
Tim.
Tim,
I have no doubt Russia has a lot of involvement in this, but by accident never intention.
Most likely IMHO is that the rebels stole a launcher from the Ukranian base they captured. Then under Russian guidance learnt to operate it, enough to fire but not discriminate a civilian vs military target. Intention no doubt to allow the rebels to counter Ukranian air capability
After that it's all a tragic accident or error as nobody can advance their cause by downing a civilian flight
Pure speciation on my part and state it as such and I'll wait the months until truth emerges, not a 3 second video, or misinformation that flies around.
Right now as others have stated getting people recovered and investigators on site is the priority.
I have no doubt Russia has a lot of involvement in this, but by accident never intention.
Most likely IMHO is that the rebels stole a launcher from the Ukranian base they captured. Then under Russian guidance learnt to operate it, enough to fire but not discriminate a civilian vs military target. Intention no doubt to allow the rebels to counter Ukranian air capability
After that it's all a tragic accident or error as nobody can advance their cause by downing a civilian flight
Pure speciation on my part and state it as such and I'll wait the months until truth emerges, not a 3 second video, or misinformation that flies around.
Right now as others have stated getting people recovered and investigators on site is the priority.
Theres so many potential bits of critical information the world is missing for an accurate picture of what happened and why, its just a shame Russia and the US/Europe are using Ukraine and its civilians lives (and now the wider global civ population) to fight their political battles. Lots of people have a lot to answer for, and we'll never know who they are and what they've done.
Gf just showed me a pic i think sums up the situation perfectly - a rebel soldier having a cigarette holding a childs stuffed toy at the crash site.
Gf just showed me a pic i think sums up the situation perfectly - a rebel soldier having a cigarette holding a childs stuffed toy at the crash site.
Bing said:-Tom- said:
I said exactly the same thing - it's awful, shocking and disgraceful.
We're flying on Malaysia Airlines to KL in just over two weeks... Wee Bing is not very happy
RIP.
Bing - change your flights if you can, the company will be going down - just a question of whether it is a week or a couple of months. I read up on the financial status of the company and it was almost bankrupt before the first crash, then after the first crash the Chinese stopped flying with them as well and this last incident will have been the fatal blow as a company.
pvr said:
I'll have Mrs B check with her family. Malaysia doesn't work the same way as the west - I'm not entirely sure that the Malaysian government will allow their flag carrier to go bust, it's not the way they work. And the fact that they have offered a refund to anyone who wants one indicates that perhaps they have some confidence that doing so will not sink them because they've got some backing.
Might get a free upgrade to 1st Class if it's empty, which on an A380 would be brilliant
#dreamoncj10jeeper said:
The downing of the airliner probably was an accident and now Russia are doing there best to cover their sorry tracks. The rest I'm afraid isn't an accident down to Putins back door antics of reclaiming as much of the Ukraine as they can and doing whatever they can to destabilise the region. I'm only sorry Europe hasn't got the balls to stand upto him like we have in the past. Putin knows this and why he's ignoring the wests requests to put an end to the current situation.
Regarding recovery of bodies looks like these are being taken to an uknown location and would expect as much of the Malaysian airliner as possible will be collected and spirited away. Afterall the area is in pro Russian hands.
Tim.
Tim.
Tim
Agree with you there.
Putin sees the collapse of Russia in the end, so drew a line in the sand. Grabbing Crimea and destabilising Ukraine is his push back.
This 'accident' my be his biggest ever mistake and finally wake the West up to stop it.
Agree with you there.
Putin sees the collapse of Russia in the end, so drew a line in the sand. Grabbing Crimea and destabilising Ukraine is his push back.
This 'accident' my be his biggest ever mistake and finally wake the West up to stop it.
Lightning87
Member
Ok just read an dutch article of a Chicago professor and terrorist expert, that the americans know (almost) sure what happend and they Will use that info to embarras putin.
Dutch pm is getting angry, called putin this evening, as the rebels are steeling and trashing victims stuff.
If i was chief here, i would threaten to send our air mobile brigade to take the crash site if those peasantfools keep on blocking experts etc. Those rebels have something to hide and are hidding evidence for sure.
Dutch pm is getting angry, called putin this evening, as the rebels are steeling and trashing victims stuff.
If i was chief here, i would threaten to send our air mobile brigade to take the crash site if those peasantfools keep on blocking experts etc. Those rebels have something to hide and are hidding evidence for sure.
He with his hands on the energy lever calls the shots. USA have no reliance on Putin's gas and so can apply sanctions 'till the cows come home. The rest of Europe needs his gas and so has to tip toe around him and make the right noises without upsetting him too much. Lets get stuck into shale gas...and fast.
Geezah said:
Error or not I do think it's time the West took more concertive action. If Russia is claiming they have no hold over the rebel forces who are in an independent state with a legitimate government then why should should Russia care?
Facts are a civilian aircraft was shot down.
The crash scene has been sealed off by basically terrorists.
Crash victims are being collected by who exactly with reports of bodies being looted.
There is every chance evidence will be destroyed or taken away.
It's a big mistake asking Russia to assist regarding the crash scene.
As good a time any in my book. If anything it will give Russia something to think about.
Tim.