London attack
- Thread starter Woots
- Start date
Ste. Didn't you say in a prior post (a few months ago) that you are a socialist? Does the military have an issue with that? Just wondering. If one was a socialist or as I call it "communist lite" No way would they be knowingly admitted into the US military. As one of the missions of the US forces is to defend our Constitution that advocates the freedom and self determination of the individual. Something communists/Socialists don't believe in.
I for one wouldn't "chuck out" any one who couldn't speak the national language. I do however take exception to those that refuse to learn the language. Then demand government forms in their tongue. Refuse to adapt to the basic values of the host nation. Or as Ranski said. Set up separate societies within another. Then demand that their culture be given special status.
The last time I called my bank in the USA. I was greeted with a person saying if I wanted English. I had to press another number. Pure vial BS. However, I don't mind if I call and hear "for Spanish please press a number" It makes for good business. But there are those in the Hispanic community in America that advocate laws to demand that businesses use Spanish.
As I live in Germany, But will only live here for a short time. I must adapt. Not the Germans. I will not and do not demand that the German government nor anyone else supply me with anything in my native tongue. If they do, Great and thanks. If they don't. I don't bitch about it. I adapted the way I dress to blend in with our gracious hosts. This is Germany. Not the USA.
I for one wouldn't "chuck out" any one who couldn't speak the national language. I do however take exception to those that refuse to learn the language. Then demand government forms in their tongue. Refuse to adapt to the basic values of the host nation. Or as Ranski said. Set up separate societies within another. Then demand that their culture be given special status.
The last time I called my bank in the USA. I was greeted with a person saying if I wanted English. I had to press another number. Pure vial BS. However, I don't mind if I call and hear "for Spanish please press a number" It makes for good business. But there are those in the Hispanic community in America that advocate laws to demand that businesses use Spanish.
As I live in Germany, But will only live here for a short time. I must adapt. Not the Germans. I will not and do not demand that the German government nor anyone else supply me with anything in my native tongue. If they do, Great and thanks. If they don't. I don't bitch about it. I adapted the way I dress to blend in with our gracious hosts. This is Germany. Not the USA.
Oops, sorry Ste, was too busy typing to see RAF Regiment. Interesting choice, I know they're recruiting hard at the moment.
Ranski, you don't have to be a war monger to be in the Forces. We don't preach hatred or violence. We're trained to act with violence always being the last resort. I also don't think that kicking out all the immigrants which actually help. These people don't act by themselves, they don't just suddenly wake up one day and think "you know what, I think I'll commit an act of terrorism today".
If you think citizenship tests, for example or tighter immigration controls will make a difference then look to the USA. Doesn't work so well over there does it? Do you think we should all be Christian and go to church? Look where that leads us?
Support your Armed Forces, remember that it is us who get called in when the emergency services struggle. Remember, it is people like us who get called upon to build bridges when they get washed away. When natural disasters occur, it is service men and women who work tirelessly to help those in need. We are not just some faceless goons wandering around in foreign countries oppressing the locals. So come 29th of June, support your Armed Forces. Shake the hand of someone who has put their life on the line because a Government has told them to.
By the way, I have enormous respect for our emergency services, please don't take my rant out of context.
Ranski, you don't have to be a war monger to be in the Forces. We don't preach hatred or violence. We're trained to act with violence always being the last resort. I also don't think that kicking out all the immigrants which actually help. These people don't act by themselves, they don't just suddenly wake up one day and think "you know what, I think I'll commit an act of terrorism today".
If you think citizenship tests, for example or tighter immigration controls will make a difference then look to the USA. Doesn't work so well over there does it? Do you think we should all be Christian and go to church? Look where that leads us?
Support your Armed Forces, remember that it is us who get called in when the emergency services struggle. Remember, it is people like us who get called upon to build bridges when they get washed away. When natural disasters occur, it is service men and women who work tirelessly to help those in need. We are not just some faceless goons wandering around in foreign countries oppressing the locals. So come 29th of June, support your Armed Forces. Shake the hand of someone who has put their life on the line because a Government has told them to.
By the way, I have enormous respect for our emergency services, please don't take my rant out of context.
bigdog said:
Nope and nope. I used the term "fairly socialist" but , "socialism" in this country is viewed stratospherically differently to america who often see it as" dangerous left wing commies". If Nye Bevin had gone to america and tried to set up the NHS he'd probably have been shot 8) Socialism for me is about looking out for and caring for the little guy, protecting the community and standing up for the freedom and rights of those who cannot stand up for themselves, something which I think the armed forces goes hand in hand with.
But lets not turn this into a left/right wing politics discussion.
1066 Country
Only just seen this... am speechless.
There are 60 million people of many cultures in this country & from the actions of JUST TWO people now have a huge proportion baying for blood.
You want an effective cure, then not only punish the purportrators but ALSO their family & friends. This means their actions will cause serious hardship to those they leave behind... make it psychological & social, far more effective as the arguments they gave in their statements will never stop this from happening again
There are 60 million people of many cultures in this country & from the actions of JUST TWO people now have a huge proportion baying for blood.
You want an effective cure, then not only punish the purportrators but ALSO their family & friends. This means their actions will cause serious hardship to those they leave behind... make it psychological & social, far more effective as the arguments they gave in their statements will never stop this from happening again
ranski said:
I think Ste is well suited
and I hope he finds a niche that suits him.
Lightning87
Member
sadly, welcome to the real europe/ western, of weak politicians who do not dare to say assimilate or go back to where you/your father came from. that sounds rude, but if you come here to contribure to sociaty, people are more than welcome.
in holland we've experiencing this for at least a decade now,with imigrants and their children being in the statistic the most criminal by percentage. with morrocan youhts in amsterdam 60 % has been in contact with the police. most heard excusse : discrimination, but the most problem is are themselfs, they drop out of school, don't wanna take a simple job because it doesn't earn to much. this is not because of the society but because of the attiude and the parenting.
and of course we've have muslim extremists over here, theo van gogh was murderd in 2004 by an extreme muslim because of him insulting muhammed. and latest news, a small part of the hague there is a sharia liked neighbourhood, as the people are spoken to by the orthodox muslims as they drink alcohol in the open, eat pig based meet, and when people dress "immoral",
in my opion, at at least a 10-15 % of the population, enough is enough. if you don't want to participate in this country, and only cause havok, and you don't want to be ruled by non-islamiclaw, go to afghanistan or irak/iran. and then don't benfit from our social system.
in holland we've experiencing this for at least a decade now,with imigrants and their children being in the statistic the most criminal by percentage. with morrocan youhts in amsterdam 60 % has been in contact with the police. most heard excusse : discrimination, but the most problem is are themselfs, they drop out of school, don't wanna take a simple job because it doesn't earn to much. this is not because of the society but because of the attiude and the parenting.
and of course we've have muslim extremists over here, theo van gogh was murderd in 2004 by an extreme muslim because of him insulting muhammed. and latest news, a small part of the hague there is a sharia liked neighbourhood, as the people are spoken to by the orthodox muslims as they drink alcohol in the open, eat pig based meet, and when people dress "immoral",
in my opion, at at least a 10-15 % of the population, enough is enough. if you don't want to participate in this country, and only cause havok, and you don't want to be ruled by non-islamiclaw, go to afghanistan or irak/iran. and then don't benfit from our social system.
Sickening act by two individuals - thoughts are with the family of the soldier. I really hope that this act does not have the repercussions that are clearly feared.
Slightly saddened by the request that service men and women hide uniforms/Id when out in public - would hope that most will continue to choose to wear it with pride and courage to show these few sick people that they won't win.
My admiration and respect for those in the armed forces who risk their lives to defend our and other nations continues to deepen. We cannot express our gratitude enough.
Edit - some interesting views epxressed on here. Nice to see we tolerate a healthy debate
Slightly saddened by the request that service men and women hide uniforms/Id when out in public - would hope that most will continue to choose to wear it with pride and courage to show these few sick people that they won't win.
My admiration and respect for those in the armed forces who risk their lives to defend our and other nations continues to deepen. We cannot express our gratitude enough.
Edit - some interesting views epxressed on here. Nice to see we tolerate a healthy debate
Well said Nick
Excellent!
Would the setting up of a trades union be a freedom too far?
I know it's off topic but I would love to discuss the history of the Labour movement with you over a pint or two. Please let me know if you are going to be in the UK. We must have a beer. In fact, we have a spare bedroom or two. If you and your better half are considering a tour of the UK and plan to incorporate walking in the Peak District come stay with us. I reckon we could find each other completely incomprehensible. It will be fun.
PS, although the common ownership of the means of production was an article of faith a more nuanced historical perspective would suggest it was a reaction to rampant capitalism. The market economy can serve socialists too. (after all its soul is for sale)
PPS sorry for the wildly off topic guys and gals.
carry on
bigdog said:
Excellent!
Would the setting up of a trades union be a freedom too far?
I know it's off topic but I would love to discuss the history of the Labour movement with you over a pint or two. Please let me know if you are going to be in the UK. We must have a beer. In fact, we have a spare bedroom or two. If you and your better half are considering a tour of the UK and plan to incorporate walking in the Peak District come stay with us. I reckon we could find each other completely incomprehensible. It will be fun.
PS, although the common ownership of the means of production was an article of faith a more nuanced historical perspective would suggest it was a reaction to rampant capitalism. The market economy can serve socialists too. (after all its soul is for sale)
PPS sorry for the wildly off topic guys and gals.
carry on
It really gets on my wick when people criticise our armed forces. Maybe I'm biased because, as a lot of you know, my lad is in the army but I had these views before he joined up.
You can argue and debate forever who 'started it' and during what confrontation back in the mists of time or in more recent history, you'll never agree on that one or in fact what is the best solution.
I would give my right arm for my son to come out the army, I've cajoled, threatened and bribed but he's staying put. You ask him about the armed forces presence abroad and he'll tell you they are there so we can sleep peacefully in our beds at night and for the main, he's got a good point.
He didn't join up so he could go point a gun at someone in another country. He knew that was a strong possibility, it's the army after all, he joined up for many other reasons but not because he wanted to go kill someone. The ones that do join up for that reason are in the minority.
His best friend and two other lads got blown to pieces in afghan. He was at a roadside check point, put in place outside a town.
A man on a motorbike approached and my son's mate stopped him and he detonated the explosives that were strapped to him.
Local intelligence found out he was on his way into the local market, filled with women and children, to detonate the explosives. No guns were pointed, no aggression but his life was lost but he saved many more.
My son would have been with him but he didn't go on that particular tour as he had had his knee smashed in by a trailer and, thank god, couldn't go.
The question could be asked, should they be there in the first place and my personal opinion is no, they shouldn't. I think they should all be brought home but what would the consequences of that be?
We aren't world police but on the other hand I understand why they are doing what they are doing.
I'll say it again, Muslim radical terrorists are, without a doubt, known to some un-radical Muslims and they are protecting them. The cure lies from within.
You can argue and debate forever who 'started it' and during what confrontation back in the mists of time or in more recent history, you'll never agree on that one or in fact what is the best solution.
I would give my right arm for my son to come out the army, I've cajoled, threatened and bribed but he's staying put. You ask him about the armed forces presence abroad and he'll tell you they are there so we can sleep peacefully in our beds at night and for the main, he's got a good point.
He didn't join up so he could go point a gun at someone in another country. He knew that was a strong possibility, it's the army after all, he joined up for many other reasons but not because he wanted to go kill someone. The ones that do join up for that reason are in the minority.
His best friend and two other lads got blown to pieces in afghan. He was at a roadside check point, put in place outside a town.
A man on a motorbike approached and my son's mate stopped him and he detonated the explosives that were strapped to him.
Local intelligence found out he was on his way into the local market, filled with women and children, to detonate the explosives. No guns were pointed, no aggression but his life was lost but he saved many more.
My son would have been with him but he didn't go on that particular tour as he had had his knee smashed in by a trailer and, thank god, couldn't go.
The question could be asked, should they be there in the first place and my personal opinion is no, they shouldn't. I think they should all be brought home but what would the consequences of that be?
We aren't world police but on the other hand I understand why they are doing what they are doing.
I'll say it again, Muslim radical terrorists are, without a doubt, known to some un-radical Muslims and they are protecting them. The cure lies from within.
June 29th is Armed Forces Day in the UK. I'll be on a stag do but you better believe I'll be making a big deal of it. Celebrating every drink with a toast to the fallen, the surviving, and the serving with every drink....there will be a lot of toasts.
I do like to see a good debate and peoples points of view are always interesting to read regardless of if I agree or not. Long may we enjoy the freedom to say what we wish, love whomever we feel worthy, believe in who we will and drink or eat what we like.
You can be damn sure not every one feels this way and so if you do appreciate this freedom, then support those who go out of their way to protect it. I don't just mean the Armed Forces, but all who do so.
I do like to see a good debate and peoples points of view are always interesting to read regardless of if I agree or not. Long may we enjoy the freedom to say what we wish, love whomever we feel worthy, believe in who we will and drink or eat what we like.
You can be damn sure not every one feels this way and so if you do appreciate this freedom, then support those who go out of their way to protect it. I don't just mean the Armed Forces, but all who do so.
As Ste touched on earlier, I believe that racial intolerance and extreme nationalism is more dangerous than immigration. Sadly psychopaths comes in all colours and creeds, and yesterday's attack can not be associated with the muslim faith any more than the Westboro Baptist Church can be associated with the christian faith.
I watched the new reports from Burma about a month ago in disgust at how little value could be placed on a life. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22243676)
Many views in this thread are clearly filled with hate and I sincerely hope the UK does not go down the same road as Burma.
I watched the new reports from Burma about a month ago in disgust at how little value could be placed on a life. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22243676)
Many views in this thread are clearly filled with hate and I sincerely hope the UK does not go down the same road as Burma.
Awww shugs.. 
I was already in love with you 8)
I'm meant to be out training but my motivation is currently in the red. This is day 4 of my week of hell and I'm simply broken.
This thread has distracted me as I feel very strongly on the subject of religious misunderstanding. I've been guilty of it in the past myself, when I was younger I didn't understand why the Muslim seemed to hate me so much just because of my ethnicity. As I spent more time with more and more different people I started to understand where this hatred comes from and learned something which changed me. Hatred is a product of fear which is a symptom of a lack of knowledge. I set out to learn what I could about Islam so that I could understand where they were coming from and then try to reason with them. Make them understand that I don't hate them, I don't want to destroy their way of life or their religion. I want to live in peace, I want to love, I want to eat bacon sandwiches with brown sauce, I want adrenaline to course through my veins and look upon every sunset and sunrise without fear that someone is going to crash their car into me and hack me to death.
I run the risk of sounding trite and overly pious here but I've been subject to and witnessed too much violence that this is a topic very close to my heart.
I was already in love with you 8) I'm meant to be out training but my motivation is currently in the red. This is day 4 of my week of hell and I'm simply broken.
This thread has distracted me as I feel very strongly on the subject of religious misunderstanding. I've been guilty of it in the past myself, when I was younger I didn't understand why the Muslim seemed to hate me so much just because of my ethnicity. As I spent more time with more and more different people I started to understand where this hatred comes from and learned something which changed me. Hatred is a product of fear which is a symptom of a lack of knowledge. I set out to learn what I could about Islam so that I could understand where they were coming from and then try to reason with them. Make them understand that I don't hate them, I don't want to destroy their way of life or their religion. I want to live in peace, I want to love, I want to eat bacon sandwiches with brown sauce, I want adrenaline to course through my veins and look upon every sunset and sunrise without fear that someone is going to crash their car into me and hack me to death.
I run the risk of sounding trite and overly pious here but I've been subject to and witnessed too much violence that this is a topic very close to my heart.
Ste said:
Just curious was all. I served in the US Air Force for 20 years. I was intensely investigated by the NSA as I worked on nuclear weapons and had to have a Top Secret clearance. The NSA agent talked with virtually everyone I had known in high school. Asking about if I had communist leanings. Or whether I had made anti American rants to anyone.
But I think talking about Left and Right are perfectly valid. As politics of the left and right have driven the admittedly wonky immigration policies to where they are today. So long as pejorative statements stay out of the mix. In America. The immigration issue for the politicians is not about folks making a new start in America. It's all about gaining votes. Votes means power, And power means money. It really is that simple. The liberal social justice folks try to secure those future votes by offering benefits to those that crossed the border illegally. Most liberals think that it is fine to issue a driving permit to illegals. And raise holy hell if you are asked to show an ID before you vote. What could the motive behind that be? The liberals want to allow illegal immigrants to vote. As they tend to vote along liberal lines. While the one's whom immigrated legally don't get benefits. As they had to prove they have skills that are needed here before they were allowed in. They tend to vote conservative. One other big issue is student visas. The universities have lobbied successfully for a very liberal policy. So that the uni's can sell desk space. Just look at the friends of the two Boston bombers. They had been in America on expired student visas. The American left does not see this as a problem. I do. It is an honor and a privilege to live in Britain and America. It's not a right. You have to earn that privilege.
Some very good debate on here. For once on a political debate I will stand on the sidelines and admire.
I'd single out Ste's contributions - I don't always agree with what you say but I think you've articulated your points of view exceptionally on this thread.
Well done to all for having a good, robust debate without resulting to personal insults.
I'd single out Ste's contributions - I don't always agree with what you say but I think you've articulated your points of view exceptionally on this thread.
Well done to all for having a good, robust debate without resulting to personal insults.
Great topic, I've been the armed forces and admire them dearly. I'd not be where i am now if i hadn't sworn my alliegance to the Queen, nor would i be with my better half
As long as everyone remembers that you can't put everyone into categories, we'll all get along fine.
Thoughts and feelings go out to those family, friends and fellow soldiers who are having an awful week.
Carol - i can understand why your lad doesnt want to leave - it's an extension of your family when you're 'in' and i think the only way out is either boredem, or transfering to a 'safer' unit, not on the frontline.
I think Carol and others have made very valid points, Muslim extremists need to be outed by their communities. What we have to remember all forms of extremism are dangerous. Anders Breivik went on a killing spree in Norway and also claimed that part of the reason he did it was for God. No-one suggested, however, that all Christians would do the same.
Also, how come some immigrants are more acceptable than others ? This reminds me of 1950's USA policy in which certain groups were more welcome than others, based on the evidence of dodgy IQ tests.
No-one has ever suggested I go back to my country and am not welcome, perhaps because a white middle class German is just somehow more acceptable. What does irk me, on a completely different note, is that I have paid taxes for 20 odd years and have done jury service, but have no right to vote in national elections.
Also, how come some immigrants are more acceptable than others ? This reminds me of 1950's USA policy in which certain groups were more welcome than others, based on the evidence of dodgy IQ tests.
No-one has ever suggested I go back to my country and am not welcome, perhaps because a white middle class German is just somehow more acceptable. What does irk me, on a completely different note, is that I have paid taxes for 20 odd years and have done jury service, but have no right to vote in national elections.