London attack

[Carol M]

You can debate this til the cows come home (or our armed forces, hopefully) and there'll never be a consensus but I tell you something I hope the plod beat the sh1t out of those two when they have finished getting their NHS treatment.
No, I know,that's not the right thing to say but if that squaddie was your son, brother, boyfriend or husband would you disagree with me?
Whoever said the Muslim community should clean up from the inside was spot on. They know who the radicals are or they'll have a good idea and if they were good Muslims and citizens they would report their knowledge/suspicions to the authorities. The majority of Muslims are decent people but the radicals are being protected without a doubt.

 

[Citation 650]

I'm with you.

 

[bigdog]

That was me Carol. I usually get a lot of heat for saying such a thing though. Because it infers that the Muslim community doesn't care. Well, If the shoe fits.

Just look at what Americans did when that preacher in Florida said he was going to burn a Qur'an. The folks spoke out against him. Loudly.

 

[GreyZed]

Religion has always been and will always be the biggest killer on Earth. For the extremist factions it transcends everything and sadly they cannot be reasoned with or reformed.

Lock em all up and throw away the key. :thumbsdown:

 

[lux]

Which makes my blood boil and decent as our nation is the sooner we kick these people out the better

Who exactly do you mean by "these people" that we should kick out?

Lets start with the fuckers that can't even speak our language and work from there!

My 19 year old nephew has been to Afgan twice and thankfully has come back to his own country to be safe and sound (so I'd like to think). I'm sure poor family of the murdered lad would have thought their son/brother/nephew was safe in the UK!!

RIP mate.

 

[slick]

Its horrendous the attack, the time till the Police arrived......the whole thing and the media giving that murderer his 5 minutes of fame , I'm shocked and disgusted by whats happened

 

[slick]

Just found this on FB.........your opinions please ....

Australia says NO - Second time she has done this!
AMAZING You must read it !!!!

Australian Prime Minister does it again!! This woman should be appointed Queen of the World.. Truer words have never been spoken.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard- Australia:

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..

Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:

'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .... Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves in UK , SA, Canada & USA, WE will find the courage to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

 

[JaEdBa]

Which makes my blood boil and decent as our nation is the sooner we kick these people out the better

Who exactly do you mean by "these people" that we should kick out?

er?? the people with blood on their hands, either on the front page of today's paper or metaphorically, as lady Macbeth observed once..

 

[Woots]

Just found this on FB.........your opinions please ....

Australia says NO - Second time she has done this!
AMAZING You must read it !!!!

Australian Prime Minister does it again!! This woman should be appointed Queen of the World.. Truer words have never been spoken.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard- Australia:

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..

Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:

'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .... Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves in UK , SA, Canada & USA, WE will find the courage to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

Unfortunately she never actually said any of that...was a hoax

But I agree with it none the less

 

[slick]

Its a hoax? Oh .......I agree with the sentiments though

 

[Ste]

Lets start with the fuckers that can't even speak our language and work from there!

Right so you "chuck out" anyone who can't speak our language, that still leaves those two from yesterday here because from what I saw they spoke perfect English in a London accent. What then? Anyone who isn't white? Anyone who isn't christian? For all we know they were born and raised in this country. Why not throw all white people out of Norway after Anders Breivik killed all those people in Utoya? Those two murderers don't speak for and represent all foreign people in this country anymore then those EDL whoppers running around London in their balaclavas trying to attack mosques last night represent me. Two groups of people there who both want to bring violence and hate to the streets of this country. That is the "enemy" right there, anyone whos seeks to spread hate and anger on our population. You can't just eradicate an entire "group" of people from society - Hitler tried that, it didn't work.

There is an immigration issue in this country. There is a culture issue in this country. There is a hate issue in this country. But until the people of this country start looking at it properly and intelligently rather than spouting what amount to nothing more then downright narrow minded rhetoric it won't get openly looked at, assessed and debated properly. It'll prove that in a second when I'll no doubt get shot down for daring to suggest something other then "throw out all foreigners" is the way forward, in trying to start a debate while people like ranski can only post "oh here we go" and take the lazy way out. It's all well and good saying lets get rid of the people who perpetrate these acts, but thats like saying lets lock up all the rapists and pedo's before they can commit any crimes - sadly we aren't gifted with psychic foresight - until they've done them you can't know who will and who won't. You need to look at preventing young men and women from being turned into extremism and hate, that's the crux of it.

If we can't view people as INDIVIDUALS capable of love and hate in equal mesures and judge them personally on their actions and interpretation of both, how do we expect to find peace in this country.

I'm not going to pretend I understand the deep complexities of racial and cultural tension in this country as I come from one of the most un-diverse places in the country. But for the record I only know personally two muslims. Both were born in this country, one is a serving member of the british army in the KORBR.

Oh, and for the record I lost a good friend in Afghanistan myself, and am currently in the early stages of signing up for the forces myself.

As always, only my opinion which I'd appreciate it if you respect even if you disagree with
Ste

 

[ranski]

Right so you "chuck out" anyone who can't speak our language, that still leaves those two from yesterday here because from what I saw they spoke perfect English in a London accent. What then? Anyone who isn't white? Anyone who isn't christian? For all we know they were born and raised in this country. Why not throw all white people out of Norway after Anders Breivik killed all those people in Utoya? Those two murderers don't speak for and represent all foreign people in this country anymore then those EDL whoppers running around London in their balaclavas trying to attack mosques last night represent me. Two groups of people there who both want to bring violence and hate to the streets of this country. That is the "enemy" right there, anyone whos seeks to spread hate and anger on our population. You can't just eradicate an entire "group" of people from society - Hitler tried that, it didn't work.

There is an immigration issue in this country. There is a culture issue in this country. There is a hate issue in this country. But until the people of this country start looking at it properly and intelligently rather than spouting what amount to nothing more then downright narrow minded rhetoric it won't get openly looked at, assessed and debated properly. It'll prove that in a second when I'll no doubt get shot down for daring to suggest something other then "throw out all foreigners" is the way forward, in trying to start a debate while people like ranski can only post "oh here we go" and take the lazy way out. It's all well and good saying lets get rid of the people who perpetrate these acts, but thats like saying lets lock up all the rapists and pedo's before they can commit any crimes - sadly we aren't gifted with psychic foresight - until they've done them you can't know who will and who won't. You need to look at preventing young men and women from being turned into extremism and hate, that's the crux of it.

If we can't view people as INDIVIDUALS capable of love and hate in equal mesures and judge them personally on their actions and interpretation of both, how do we expect to find peace in this country.

I'm not going to pretend I understand the deep complexities of racial and cultural tension in this country as I come from one of the most un-diverse places in the country. But for the record I only know personally two muslims. Both were born in this country, one is a serving member of the british army in the KORBR.

Oh, and for the record I lost a good friend in Afghanistan myself, and am currently in the early stages of signing up for the forces myself.

As always, only my opinion which I'd appreciate it if you respect even if you disagree with

I agree with most of what you are saying, but unfortunately it’s an ideology that is never going to happen. More so as immigration has already cut up and divided this and many other western countries, where communities never mix and they have created their own society, in many cases which goes against British values

You are joining the army? That’s somewhat of a paradox after your soapbox speech – Although I am sure that pointing a gun at someone in a foreign land where we are not wanted will bring more change than what you propose for this country

 

[Finisterre]

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[Ste]

You are joining the army? That’s somewhat of a paradox after your soapbox speech – Although I am sure that pointing a gun at someone in a foreign land where we are not wanted will bring more change than what you propose for this country

RAF Regiment

Hmm, I see the armed forces as a defender of freedom and promotor of peace and security both at home and overseas i don't see anywhere in my "soapbox speach" that's at odds to that. Where's the paradox? Genuine question...

 

[Silverfox]

We have sadly lost another brave soldier. Unfortunately the British serviceman/woman is an easy target, when off duty in the UK, for nutters like this. I feel for his family for their loss and other families who have sons and daughters serving their country cos they will all be worried for their safety. Its bad enough for them when they are away on operations but in your own back yard.. well thats another thing that should not be tollerated.
I think that it is dangerous/irressponsible to broadcast stuff like this on the TV cos it will only fuel the fire of hatered and fear throughout our communities.
When these 2 c=-nts are sent to prison I hope that they are made to suffer the worst things imaginable for the rest of their days.

 

[ranski]

You are joining the army? That’s somewhat of a paradox after your soapbox speech – Although I am sure that pointing a gun at someone in a foreign land where we are not wanted will bring more change than what you propose for this country

RAF Regiment

Hmm, I see the armed forces as a defender of freedom and promotor of peace and security both at home and overseas i don't see anywhere in my "soapbox speach" that's at odds to that. Where's the paradox? Genuine question...

Ok try another word 'hypocrite'

You think by carrying a gun or flying a plane under orders of a government who has no regard for you, or the country they are supposedly protecting will bring peace?

Did you hear of that little war in Iraq which was the catalyst to all of this? or vietnam or Afghanistan - the list goes on my friend... all about money and power - not peace as you hark on about

like i said you triped yourself up somewhat after your war and peace statement, sorry i mean peace, then war

 

[Ste]

Did you hear of that little war in Iraq which was the catalyst to all of this?

Really? I must have dreamt up the crusades then. This sort of fighting and violence has been going on for years, Iraq is but a small stepping stone in the global struggle humanity faces against each other.

You think by carrying a gun or flying a plane under orders of a government who has no regard for you, or the country they are supposedly protecting will bring peace?

What's the alternative? Do I think the world would be a more dangerous place without the armed forces, yes. Do I think the freedom and security of this country would be put at risk without the armed forces, yes.

Immediate world peace would be the ideal solution, but to quote yourself "unfortunately it’s an ideology that is never going to happen."

Are you actually suggesting that because I'dlike to see freedom and safety on our streets I don't belong in the armed forces?

 

[ranski]

Looks like your ideology is cracking up there Ste

Enjoy the Army, sorry RAF, a career that I and many look up to, but after your preaching I would have thought you be better as a community support officer

 

[richarddaviesgb]

Which service/trade/branch are you looking into Ste? There seems to be a few of us serving on here so good place to find out what its really like before you sign up. Not saying it's a bad life by the way, more that we could probably give you some options that the AFCO like to forget. I only found the trade I did when I met a guy at a specialist interview who said it might be up my street. Twelve years gone and it's been an adventure.

Back on topic. I didn't get chance to make clear what I said before and it looks like what I meant has been pretty well covered. This isn't an immigrant thing, this isn't a religious thing. These 2 have used religion as an excuse but it all boils down to them as (and I use this term lightly) humans. They have been brain washed/encouraged/convinced by some unknown party that this is what is happening in their homeland. That British forces are going around killing at a whim when it couldn't be more different. I've served in both Iraq, Afghanistan and Africa. Some of the most horrific things I saw were what the indigenous were doing to each other.

We (as in British Forces) are trained, nay brainwashed in probably closer, to believe in the sanctity of human life. To protect it and do everything we can to help wherever possible. We're taught to give first aid to those who need it most first, regardless of if they have just been trying to kill us. Naturally, your angry and inside you're tearing yourself apart but you do it because you believe in it.

Don't get me wrong, we're not all perfect and you do get the odd few who don't understand this. It is these that make it to the papers, obviously, and it is with stories such as these that insanity like we saw yesterday is bred. It is used to fuel hatred and ignite passion in a cause in the name of belief. If you're angry at anyone, be angry at those who caused this tragedy. The unseen, unheard, unknown faces behind these 2 and countless others waiting to find the courage to do something like this.

This isn't restricted to Mosques, this is happening all over the world across all religions, social clubs. Anywhere someone needs to feel that power over others, that need to control and herd their subjects to a particular train of belief. Anywhere someone can take an idea and twist it to suit their needs.

No, it is at times like this when we need to remember who we are and not what they want us to be. We must not be those led into anger and violence by hateful influences who would see us burn all those who aren't like us.

As a nation, we are angry and appalled by this act and the many like it that happen across the world. I for one, will not let my anguish be misdirected.

 

[Ste]

Looks like your ideology is cracking up there Ste

Enjoy the Army, sorry RAF, a career that I and many look up to, but after your preaching I would have thought you be better as a community support officer

I don't have "ideology", that's far too rigid and defining for the real world, and for want of a better word idealistic. I have opinions and beliefs on right from wrong and hold these very dear.

Thanks all the same, I'll try my best. Thanks for sticking (sort of) to a respectful and meaningful debate