Traction control & some advice please!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Ok, I have just taken a look at this thread for the first time and I would just like to drop in a few words.

Firstly, I tend to agree th post did come across as a bit personal and I for one would not have likes such sentiments aimed at me. We all generally get on really well but at the end of the day most of us do not know enough about each other to comment personally (in a negative manner especially) on the level of knowledge or skills of others.

To put it into perspective there have been several very good racing drivers who know comparatively little about the physics aspect of driving where as others know it inside out. Does this mean they deserve less respect than the others, indeed not.

This said, forums can be funny things... words can be said in jest and words can be taken out of context. I would like to think this was just a poor judgement call and no offence was meant. We all have the same interest here and I have to echo the sentiment that we don't want this to become a slanging match.

The info and the diagram "The HACK" posted was very informative to me, and taught me something I previously didn't know... I look forward to reading more.

Cheers,

Jim
 
sp3ctre said:
The info and the diagram "The HACK" posted was very informative to me, and taught me something I previously didn't know... I look forward to reading more.
Click to expand...

x2 on that, it was very informative :thumbsup:
 
Can I suggest we bring an end to this?

I am not offended, hurt or disturbed by any of this.

It sounds like somebody on here knows way more about the physics of how a car might behave than I can comprehend. Fair play to fella, I hope he will continue to offer his opinion whenever somebody needs it.

I'm sure he had no intention of taking the piss out of me or my perceived skills.

Unless of course we meet on the road someday, then I might just have to kick his backside........just kidding!
 
Judging by the amoung of time my traction control light is on (tends to flicker OFF rather than flicker ON) I'd have killed myself by now if i'd had an S2000 :D (v.nearly got one!)
 
sp3ctre said:
Judging by the amoung of time my traction control light is on (tends to flicker OFF rather than flicker ON) I'd have killed myself by now if i'd had an S2000 :D (v.nearly got one!)
Click to expand...

Having owned an S2k as a track toy for a couple of years I will say that there are reasons why Honda finally gave in and added traction control in 2006 (mine was an '05). You can learn a lot about car handling in a car that is almost completely neutral and in retrospect I now have a much greater level of understanding on why car engineers go so far to make sure that our cars tend towards initial understeer. Seeing the track ahead of you out of the car door windows followed by trying to maneuver the car out of the snap oversteer that follows adds quite the pucker factor to your track experience.

I prefer seeing the light flicker out on the streets. It's nice having an electronanny when I am off of the track and trying to concentrate on traffic and street hazards.
 
AlanL said:
Seeing the track ahead of you out of the car door windows followed by trying to maneuver the car out of the snap oversteer that follows adds quite the pucker factor to your track experience.
Click to expand...

I guess you soon realise that adrenaline is brown ;)
 
ovrkll said:
I understand that, but the original posts were in regards to driving on roads and not a track. There is a lot less room for maneuvering unless all lanes (if there are any) are open, hence the propensity to push hard coming out of the turn and the likelihood of the DSC stepping in. Not everyone has track experience (or enough of it) to see a corner/curve and automatically know the exact line and amount of pedal and brake to use to achieve maximum results.
Click to expand...

There's no difference between physics of driving on the road or on the track. If you push the throttle in the area marked yellow too hard, the car will lose traction. And this isn't about knowing and seeing a corner automatically and understanding where the apex and track out is. It's simple vehicle dynamics that you need to know and be aware of next time you want to "push" your car to the limit. It'll come a point when DSC isn't capable of overriding the laws of physics. Y'all need to understand why the car does what it does.

I'm not here to critique anyone's driving abilities. I'm not here to advocate that everyone take their cars to the track. I'm here to save you and your cars from an early demise. The diagram I posted is the basics and most fundamental element of driving that should be taught to EVERYONE but isn't. If you want to drive a RWD sports car and drive it safely, you need to know this.

Because one day you won't be so lucky.
 
On a slightly different vein from the OPs "traction control light starts flashing".....

Does anyone else get a system intervention & NOT have the indicator flash?
There's times when I'm positive I FEEL intervention but no light.
 
inTgr8r said:
On a slightly different vein from the OPs "traction control light starts flashing".....

Does anyone else get a system intervention & NOT have the indicator flash?
There's times when I'm positive I FEEL intervention but no light.
Click to expand...

Depending on the level of "intervening" the light won't always flash. For example, if it's only cutting throttle on a lower threshold, there will not be a visual indication. If it's cutting throttle on a higher threshold it'll flash, or if it's intervening by braking it'll flash.

My E46 323Ci, Z4 3.0 all exhibit this behavior.

By the way, my original post was not in anyway trying to belittle someone, although I have to admit I'm not in the business to please anyone except my wife, so I keep my posts short and to the point. If that comes across as harsh or abusive or arrogant, well...Tough. :) But my point was trying to explain why OP's traction control was trying to intervene for so long, it wasn't the car's fault, it was doing everything possible to keep the car on its intended path. If OP had understand vehicle dynamics and the basics of performance driving, DSC would have never intervened in the first place and I'll bet the OP could have taken the on-ramp at twice the exit speed.

If any of you have the opportunity to go to a safe place to explore the limits of your fine vehicle, I encourage you to do so. But make sure you understand the principles behind driving a RWD car and vehicle dynamics so you can explore the limits safely...Because DSC can only do so much to save your bacon.
 
I find the DSC a little too cautious (especially on track). I don't necessarily agree that the DSC in the original post was doing "everything possible to keep the car on it's intended path", in as much as, had the DSC been off, I expect it wouldn't have deviated from it's path anyway, from the experiences I've found in my car.

Yes, it will certainly save those who don't have a clue from an early demise. But for anyone with an ounce of car control and RWD experience, the DSC is a very, very strict nanny!
 
The MZ4 Coupe's DSC threshold is actually quite HIGH. I forgot to turn off DSC a couple of times at Willow Springs International Raceway, and all the while going through a banked turn at 120mph+, and never did DSC interfere. Heck it let me hang the tail out a little bit on an up-hill, off camber turn where someone spilled some radiator fluid earlier.

My experience with DSC on the MZ4 coupe, is that it'll let you go all the way up to 8/10th smoothly without intervening. If you try to push past that threshold it'll reign you in a little. When you go past your 10/10th then it'll jump in and prevent you from having fun. But the threshold adjusts to your driving style, the smoother you are, the less it'll intervene. But you probably already know that, the smoother you are, the faster you will be.

Both myself and my instructor friends in the BMW CCA feel that at a DE environment, your fastest laps are usually about as fast as you can drive without activating DSC at all. If DSC never kicks in you're doing something right.
 
I still say with sport mode on the little yellow light flashes way way less. Also I've noticed that like others the car will sometimes feel limited even though no light.
 
HACK, are you a driving instructor? And if so how much, if any, of your experience/training is performed on the streets?
T.
 
fire-n-ice said:
HACK, are you a driving instructor? And if so how much, if any, of your experience/training is performed on the streets?
T.
Click to expand...

Yes, none.

You can not teach proper driver's training under street conditions. Too much traffic, not enough control over the environment. We do rent out large parking lots for our exercises, and we teach stuff from car control skills (ABS exercise, skid pad, spin recovery...etc) to slow to medium speed maneuvers (auto-cross, slalom, and lane change exercise), to high speed, high load, limit of adhesion stuff (track based HPDE). Since the classes and skills we teach need to be done in a controlled environment it is impossible to do "on the streets."

A lot of what we teach can be, and should be applied to street driving. At least the Car Control Clinics and Auto-cross schools do. The track/HPDE stuff doesn't immediately apply to street driving skills but it imparts important "performance driving" skills that makes you a better driver.

If you reside in Southern California, these are the organizations I volunteer with:

http://www.drivingconcepts.com/
http://www.bmwclubla.org/
 
Kewl :thumbsup: , was just wondering since you use terminology other then laymens. I'm on the eastcoast but if I ever come out there I'll look you up. Stick around, you're great info. :)
T.
 
Okay, now I'm curious.

I always thought that the DSC just detected wheel slippage, so only kicked in when there was some degree of traction loss. If it's stricter than that (like it sounds like in some of these posts) what sort of sensors does it use to determine when to kick in? Lateral and forward g-force?

I guess what I mean is, if it is detecting something OTHER than traction loss, then how could it know to engage on wet roads/ gravel etc. where the g-forces aren't all that huge before loss of control would take place?

But if traction loss is the trigger, then how could it adjust to different driving styles or be too tough a mistress? (unless, of course the driver LIKES to peel out or slip around corners, that is.)
 
Bluesharp said:
(unless, of course the driver LIKES to peel out or slip around corners, that is.)
Click to expand...


:whistle:
I don't know what your talking about
:driving:
I haven't noticed the DSC (well yellow light) kicking any more or any less since I got the car, so yeah atm it is PFM to me.
 
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