The jab ..

[Z4C_er]

All these phone camera films of empty wards doing the rounds is bulls**t, these wards don’t have covid patients in them, they’re on different relevant wards along with most of the hospitals staff. I really really hate this propaganda utter crap being peddled by morons suggesting the hospitals and GP surgeries are not stretched to the limit, it’s wrong and it’s damn right atrocious and malicious to suggest otherwise.

You're right. It's a stupid thing to do. Irresponsible and heartless.
But, do they deserve jail time?
https://www.redditchadvertiser.co.uk/news/19005968.four-arrested-suspicion-causing-public-nuisance-worcestershire-hospitals/
This is when it gets stupid. There are plenty of other people out there peddling religious hate speech, wielding knives, causing serious injuries (or planning to) that need to be locked up. This causes "serious public concern".
Not these guys. They're just buffoons.

They are way more than buffoons. They are conspiracists attempting to underrmine the nations effort to combat this awful disease. Bufoons may be found in other corridors but these idiots deserve our contempt and no amount of what aboutery excuses their behaviour. It wasn't some saturday night prank after a few too many or a naive moment of madness. It was a concerted and pre-conceived plan to mislead with no thought for the consequences. If it requires fines and even prison sentences to stamp it out I for one would support it.

This is one of those 'on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is this' scenarios. So, sounds like you're putting this at an 8 or so? Where do rapists, murderers, terrorists, hijackers, bombers or child molesters fit in?

 

[ronk]

I cannot even begin to understand the covid denying people.
If they think it’s a hoax then get them to help out in hospitals!

 

[Z4C_er]

I cannot even begin to understand the covid denying people.
If they think it’s a hoax then get them to help out in hospitals!

I don't think there are many around. If at all, there are people questioning the severity rather than the existence.

 

[ronk]

There’s not many in the great scale of things. They have demonstrated their feelings in public in the U.K. and put others at risk.

I agree that on here, some of the contributors are erring on the “I’m a low risk candidate “ Oldies like me however! I’m not worrying myself to sleep each night but admit to keeping my head down as well as the lockdown!

 

[Vornwend]

You're right. It's a stupid thing to do. Irresponsible and heartless.
But, do they deserve jail time?
https://www.redditchadvertiser.co.uk/news/19005968.four-arrested-suspicion-causing-public-nuisance-worcestershire-hospitals/
This is when it gets stupid. There are plenty of other people out there peddling religious hate speech, wielding knives, causing serious injuries (or planning to) that need to be locked up. This causes "serious public concern".
Not these guys. They're just buffoons.

They are way more than buffoons. They are conspiracists attempting to underrmine the nations effort to combat this awful disease. Bufoons may be found in other corridors but these idiots deserve our contempt and no amount of what aboutery excuses their behaviour. It wasn't some saturday night prank after a few too many or a naive moment of madness. It was a concerted and pre-conceived plan to mislead with no thought for the consequences. If it requires fines and even prison sentences to stamp it out I for one would support it.

This is one of those 'on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is this' scenarios. So sounds like you're putting this at an 8 or so? Where do rapists, murderers, terrorists, hijackers, bombers or child molesters fit in?

More what aboutery. Obviously the impact of those crimes is much easier to directly assess and is deliberately chosen as emotive but that doesn't mean these people can be excused. Their actions contribute to more people refusing the vaccine or taking the counter measures less seriously which leads to more lives being lost than is neccessary hence the reason its being so roundly condemned. Its the deliberate and duplicitous nature of their actions that makes this different than just a harmless prank that can be dismissed as mere bufoonery. I have no sympathy for them at all.

 

[john-e89]

They are way more than buffoons. They are conspiracists attempting to underrmine the nations effort to combat this awful disease. Bufoons may be found in other corridors but these idiots deserve our contempt and no amount of what aboutery excuses their behaviour. It wasn't some saturday night prank after a few too many or a naive moment of madness. It was a concerted and pre-conceived plan to mislead with no thought for the consequences. If it requires fines and even prison sentences to stamp it out I for one would support it.

This is one of those 'on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is this' scenarios. So sounds like you're putting this at an 8 or so? Where do rapists, murderers, terrorists, hijackers, bombers or child molesters fit in?

More what aboutery. Obviously the impact of those crimes is much easier to directly assess and is deliberately chosen as emotive but that doesn't mean these people can be excused. Their actions contribute to more people refusing the vaccine or taking the counter measures less seriously which leads to more lives being lost than is neccessary hence the reason its being so roundly condemned. Its the deliberate and duplicitous nature of their actions that makes this different than just a harmless prank that can be dismissed as mere bufoonery. I have no sympathy for them at all.

I wouldn’t jail them Z4C, the places are full enough, I’d hit them in the pocket, hard in the pocket, well into the thousands...Vormwend puts it better than me, it’s a deliberate thought out act to presumably fuel the conspiracy theorists, the plain stupid, and worst of all have utter contempt for the NHS. Fine them as hard as possible. I find it sickening tbh, these pond scum would be thumping the door of the hospital if they needed treatment for something and yet they do this, totally abhorrent.

 

[Z4C_er]

They are way more than buffoons. They are conspiracists attempting to underrmine the nations effort to combat this awful disease. Bufoons may be found in other corridors but these idiots deserve our contempt and no amount of what aboutery excuses their behaviour. It wasn't some saturday night prank after a few too many or a naive moment of madness. It was a concerted and pre-conceived plan to mislead with no thought for the consequences. If it requires fines and even prison sentences to stamp it out I for one would support it.

This is one of those 'on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is this' scenarios. So sounds like you're putting this at an 8 or so? Where do rapists, murderers, terrorists, hijackers, bombers or child molesters fit in?

More what aboutery. Obviously the impact of those crimes is much easier to directly assess and is deliberately chosen as emotive but that doesn't mean these people can be excused. Their actions contribute to more people refusing the vaccine or taking the counter measures less seriously which leads to more lives being lost than is neccessary hence the reason its being so roundly condemned. Its the deliberate and duplicitous nature of their actions that makes this different than just a harmless prank that can be dismissed as mere bufoonery. I have no sympathy for them at all.

How does showing empty wards contribute to people not accepting the vaccine?
There are stories from actual Nurses and actual Doctors (and I've heard some directly) that say they have done very little during the first main lockdown. They were bored off their brains. Some wards were indeed empty.
And don't forget the Nightingale wards that to my knowledge have never been properly utilised. I had colleagues that worked around the clock and on weekends to develop and build ventilators that are currently gathering dust.
My point is, that this story has foundation. What I worry about is - and I've seen a lot of this - is the force of the law (and the laws are being re-written all the time) is being applied to these people in an unbalanced way. Some of the nurses that speak out (not lie) are sacked. That is, they are punished for telling the truth.
That deserves jail time, not this.

 

[Z4C_er]

My point is, that this story has foundation. What I worry about is - and I've seen a lot of this - is the force of the law (and the laws are being re-written all the time) is being applied to these people in an unbalanced way. Some of the nurses that speak out (not lie) are sacked. That is, they are punished for telling the truth.
That deserves jail time, not this.

I do worry about this alot.

The continued hand over of power and civil liberties under the "covid" banner.

I suspect that when this virus runs it course the power and laws they have created will not change and we will be in a different society.

I saw this graphic that might have some pointers for future research for understanding why the NHS is busy this time of year.

You and I are on the same page, I think. I see a lot of things, and share maybe 5% (well filtered) of what I see.
I saw from an Australian statistical data dump (like ONS) an alarming amount of people that front up to A&E with the sniffles or a sore throat.
And yes, let's see what laws will be rescinded after this.
I'd say none.

 

[john-e89]

I guess as mentioned before threads back a doctor on here (apologies I can't remember the name) mentioned that a covid patient takes more staff to look after. And that on its own is a problem but when you look at all the points above and add them all together we can see why there is a problem.

Indeed mgrlane. Quick comparison, lots of others obvs, but when I was in IC last year for a week after a fall I had two nurses every 24hrs doing the routine checks, drug delivery, helping me walk etc,etc, all an idiot needs to recover. A covid patient took up 14 nurses and specialist staff at the same period last year, tbh I’m not sure if that’s the same now but you’d assume or think so right, there or thereabouts.

 

[Z4C_er]

You and I are on the same page, I think. I see a lot of things, and share maybe 5% (well filtered) of what I see.
Let's see what laws will be rescinded after this.

A. I am going to make an assumption that you are one of the younger members on on here and like me you have probably spent an unhealthy amount of time looking at articles and statics.

B. I look at this pandemic more through the glasses of "how it will shape the world that I live in, how it will effect my generation, my future children's generation, whats business going to be like, how are low income families going to survive" Millions of worries and questions.

C. I am not concerned about the effects of Covid on myself nor am I particularly worried about the physical effects on the younger generations. It's just the concern for the elderly (obviously are acceptations to every rule before I get jumped on).

D. You contrast this way of thinking (there are no right or wrong answers- just different views) with the more "senior's" on here who are plugged 24hours into the BBC and Piers Morgan and literally (rightly or wrongly) are in fear and survival mode.

E. If you had to rate their concerns it would simply be their own generations health and survival. I know that you can't put everyone in the same group but I would imagine they all have pensions, houses and cars that are paid for and no real care for the financial implications for society. My father is like this- he is annoyed that he can't go out, see his grandchildren and travel in his retirement but financially there are no implications to him what so ever (easy to bang the lockdown drum when in this situation) and I 100% would have that train of thought if I was them.

F. The shape of society over the next 20-30 years is probably not a major concern to them, nor their civil liberties (you can see this from all of the aggression on here directed towards people who are thinking of not having the jab) they want you to have it for their survival and that's that.

A. No, I'm actually in my 50's. And yes, I have spent an unhealthy amount of time looking at the internet! This is one of the things that I raise the alarm bells about, because what's happening now is in some ways following a well-written script. 'Boiling a frog' if you will.

B,C,D. Same, I am much more concerned for my children than myself. Especially the draconian laws that are being brought in. You can see how the kids are just accepting it. Again, with the likes of the BBC that bang the drum, the parents are conditioning their children to accept, rather than question this incredible stripping away of our liberties. Being conditioned with buzz-phrases like the new normal, etc. And yes, this virus is real, and we need to shield and protect our elderly and those in the firing line.

E. Correct, but I have also seen many elderly that are more concerned with the country's survival and their own mental health at not being able to see their children/grandchildren than being locked away. They openly question the ruinous nature of what's going on.

F. Yes, as above.

My wife received a Christmas letter from some elderly friends of her family. It was very interesting. I'll try and scan it and post it here. They are church ministers and see 1000's of elderly people come and go through their ministry. Their observations were very interesting. I won't say any more, as I may be colouring their words.

 

[john-e89]

Indeed mgrlane. Quick comparison, lots of others obvs, but when I was in IC last year for a week after a fall I had two nurses every 24hrs doing the routine checks, drug delivery, helping me walk etc,etc, all an idiot needs to recover. A covid patient took up 14 nurses and specialist staff at the same period last year, tbh I’m not sure if that’s the same now but you’d assume or think so right, there or thereabouts.

It's interesting isn't it. Have we fooked ourselves over the years by massively underfunding the NHS? I think so.

I think if you look at the numbers without any emotion we are the victims of our own success (hear me out).

70 year's ago this would have not been a pandemic. I haven't got the stats to hand but I am sure if we successfully vaccinate all of the over 60's we can bring down the amount of deaths by 90%.

In 1950 the wold average life expectancy was 48 (65 in the UK). Now I am sure you would probably have to change the figures slightly but you can see my point there.

It looks to me that we have such a high increase in life expectancy but we haven't invested anywhere near the amount in terms of numbers to care for our old folk. If anything the technology and understanding has got better but numbers (Bed's) and human support has not grown. I think we are 30k beds down since 2000 (probably not the exact number but I remember it was about that when me and my mates were debating who fooked the NHS- labour or the torys).

It’s not down to simply funding though mgrlane, unfortunately the NHS has and still is, plagued by mis-management, it was a lot worse 30 years ago however. You can’t just throw money at it, it has to be managed correctly, but it’s getting better. But yes I agree too, the population is only going one way and we do need to up the funding in terms of buildings etc. My dad was superintendent radiographer for the Hallamshire and 12 other district hospitals in the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s, he devoted his whole life and was incredibly passionate about the NHS, but in the end beaurocrisy wore him down so much he took early retirement at 61, something he wouldn’t have dreamed of.

One last point, over this whole debate you and I have been very civil and understood each other’s viewpoint, we haven’t had a cross word, excellent, however that will change dramatically if you even suggest for one moment I take one iota of notice of Piers bloody dipshit Morgan...... :wink: Nor am I glued to the British biased corp’..... :lol: :wink:

 

[Z4C_er]

if you even suggest for one moment I take one iota of notice of Piers bloody dipshit Morgan...... :wink: Nor am I glued to the British biased corp’..... :lol: :wink:

More of that please!

God knows why I even click on the BBC news these days. It is so biased. So obviously and blatantly so.

 

[exdos]

I think all on here are on the same page and want the same thing but we are all looking at it differently.

I agree 100%.

I look at this pandemic more through the glasses of "how it will shape the world that I live in, how it will effect my generation, my future children's generation, whats business going to be like, how are low income families going to survive" Millions of worries and questions.

Although you are about half my age, I don't just think about how it will effect any particular generation, but society as a whole. We're all in this together. I have two daughters both of your generation, both with self-employed husbands and have young families, so I am fully aware of the difficulties facing you and your children's future and I accept that the risks facing me and the older generations are the not the same financial risks as facing your generation, but that the health risks facing my generation are considerably greater than those facing your generation and younger. The generations need to work together to get out of the predicament facing us all.

You contrast this way of thinking (there are no right or wrong answers- just different views) with the more "senior's" on here who are plugged 24hours into the BBC and Piers Morgan and literally (rightly or wrongly) are in fear and survival mode.

That really is a crass generalisation and in my case is totally wrong. I obtain my information from diverse resources and read LOTS of published peer-reviewed scientific papers etc., which I fully understand.

If you had to rate their concerns it would simply be their own generations health and survival. I know that you can't put everyone in the same group but I would imagine they all have pensions, houses and cars that are paid for and no real care for the financial implications for society.

I understand your frustration but it seems to be miscolouring your view that this is a generational war of old versus young, rather than a viral pandemic affecting us all but in many different ways.

My father is like this- he is annoyed that he can't go out, see his grandchildren and travel in his retirement but financially there are no implications to him what so ever (easy to bang the lockdown drum when in this situation) and I 100% would have that train of thought if I was them.

That is far removed from my viewpoint.

The shape of society over the next 20-30 years is probably not a major concern to them, nor their civil liberties (you can see this from all of the aggression on here directed towards people who are thinking of not having the jab) they wan't you to have it for their survival and that's that.

Believe me, I am as a concerned as you about the shape and nature of our society over the next 30 or more years, and it is a major concern for me, because as a responsible father and citizen, I am greatly concerned for the welfare of my own offspring, their offspring and onwards as well as the wider public (including you and yours) all in the same boat.

At the end of the day we all want the same thing it's just the path we want to take to the destination is completely different.

The immediate danger to us all is the C-19 virus pandemic, and the sooner this is overcome, the better for us all. You seem more focussed on your civil liberties than effective public health strategies designed to enable us all to return to near-normality ASAP.

The C-19 pandemic will not be defeated by civil-rights but by the public following public health measures in which we all need to forgo some of our civil rights for the greater good of the society in which we all live.

 

[john-e89]

One last point, over this whole debate you and I have been very civil and understood each other’s viewpoint, we haven’t had a cross word, excellent, however that will change dramatically if you even suggest for one moment I take one iota of notice of Piers bloody dipshit Morgan...... Nor am I glued to the British biased corp’.....

Likewise John,

This whole chat on here has been extremely helpful to me. I appreciate it hasn't for some but there have been a number of different views, valid points, and area's of consideration that I for one hadn't thought about. It's good to hear paragraph's of a different viewpoint rather than 120 words or so (twitter).

I will admit there have been a couple of things that I have mentioned for reactions- "Piers" and "Paying people's pensions" being the most prominent

I can't stand Piers.

Absolutely, lots of food for thought. I know this type of debate is not welcome by some on a car forum but it is the lounge area, and you do get perspectives you might not normally think of. Its all good imho.

Morgan is a prize tit..... :lol:

 

[Crazy Harry]

Do the over 65's have any extra financial worry's in the pandemic? I feel it is strictly health but I am happy to be proved wrong?

On this forum possibly not although the returns on all types of investments are all over the place (except drug shares) and this will continue the low interest rates no doubt, which eat into savings returns; and the value of pension pots when buying annuities.

For those who don't run a Zed as a second / weekend car (or a car all at) its just more of the same hand to mouth living that being a pensioner means for some - and additional costs of heating etc because you can't go out to the shops or library to keep warm.

 

[exdos]

Do the over 65's have any extra financial worry's in the pandemic? I feel it is strictly health but I am happy to be proved wrong? I have no heath worry's and it's a financial pandemic to me and I would suggest that in my peer group this is our concern (apart from the health of our parents and grand parents).

I accept that the pandemic causes me little financial worry, but that doesn't stop me being fully sympathetic/empathetic to the younger generations or those in a less fortunate position than myself. Believe me, I'm fully on your side!

It's obvious that you are, rightly, very concerned about both the short and long-term implications of this pandemic and that you are both intelligent and interested enough to investigate this subject. However, the reason why I've persisted in this thread and taken issue with you on many points is because I think your view is not holistic, and your earlier posting seems to confirm that your POV is from a generational/civil liberties perspective, whereas, as I keep banging the drum, the escape route is via public health measures, followed by all the public, of all generations.

When we're on the other side of this pandemic, I will rejoin you and your fight for our (all of us) civil liberties, but until those happy times, I would simply ask you to fully support the public health measures required to defeat C-19, our common enemy.

 

[Z4C_er]

Absolutely, lots of food for thought. I know this type of debate is not welcome by some on a car forum but it is the lounge area, and you do get perspectives you might not normally think of. Its all good imho.

I guess they might have a point.

But where would we have been able to have had this type of chat elsewhere? In my opinion as long no one is bullying/abusing people and are within reason respectful that other people have a different point of view to them then I don't see a problem. Personally I like being challenged and presented with alternative viewpoints. Like with many things in life and politics, the answer never lies at either extreme- it's always somewhere in the middle.

The thread has got slightly heated on occasions but no more than what I have read in some of these "for sale" threads that have gone a bit south.

I agree with you. I would have been quite concerned if this thread were to be locked. It's healthy discussion and beneficial for all sides to see the other person's view.
This isn't Twitter (thank God!)!!!

 

[exdos]

I agree with you. I would have been quite concerned if this thread were to be locked. It's healthy discussion and beneficial for all sides to see the other person's view.
This isn't Twitter (thank God!)!!!

Personally, I find this forum is the BEST "Vox Pop" resource for the UK. I think the government advisers would do well to read it.

 

[Stevo1987]

I am finding it a struggle mentally. Maybe something to do with my three grown up children being back at home! :lol: . I wasn't ready for that. Have any of you lot been offered the flu jab who wouldn't have normally? My GP is is offering it to all from ages 50-64. I just sneaked into that range of course.

 

[Z4C_er]

I agree with you. I would have been quite concerned if this thread were to be locked. It's healthy discussion and beneficial for all sides to see the other person's view.
This isn't Twitter (thank God!)!!!

Gosh, the freedom of speech/trump twitter debate is a massive can of worms.

Yes, I.... errmmm.... I mean it's...
And then again I.....
Oh, never mind.