Scrapage Scheme Madness

[Nanu]

I was reading somewhere that it takes up to 10 years of running your average EV before you break even with costs versus savings. This is not taking into account that if we all get EV’s then excise duty will have to be replaced with charges per mile and charges for clean air zones will disappear so any savings will reduce dramatically.

In previous posts which I will not copy here, it assumes the range of EV as 580 miles equals 2 charges. That very much depends on how they are used. In winter months add heating, lights and any other comforts such as radio and these decrease the range substantially. Tech to increase range is hinted at and with fingers crossed but that is way in the future by which time hydrogen technology will have overtaken electric.

Fortunately or unfortunately these things will not come to pass in my lifetime.

 

[MikeyH]

As I previously said I like many other people either don’t want to or can’t afford to spend over £40,000 on a new ev. So we would end up with an old ev with an end of life battery costing over £5000 for a new one. That’s the cost of a decent low ish mileage ice car. Yes I would love to buy an ev but it is not financially possible for many people.

 

[SonnyA85]

As I previously said I like many other people either don’t want to or can’t afford to spend over £40,000 on a new ev. So we would end up with an old ev with an end of life battery costing over £5000 for a new one. That’s the cost of a decent low ish mileage ice car. Yes I would love to buy an ev but it is not financially possible for many people.

Majority of people aren't buying them but leasing them.

When your leasing a car and it's £350 a month for the petrol and a model 3 is £450 a month. You then take into account that you spend £200 a month in fuel and the electric car costs £50 a month to charge. You then see you are saving money.

Especially if you use the various mileage schemes if you have a business car the savings become even larger.

 

[Scubaregs]

For £50 a month extra, I'll stick with petrol thanks.

 

[MikeyH]

As I previously said I like many other people either don’t want to or can’t afford to spend over £40,000 on a new ev. So we would end up with an old ev with an end of life battery costing over £5000 for a new one. That’s the cost of a decent low ish mileage ice car. Yes I would love to buy an ev but it is not financially possible for many people.

Majority of people aren't buying them but leasing them.

When your leasing a car and it's £350 a month for the petrol and a model 3 is £450 a month. You then take into account that you spend £200 a month in fuel and the electric car costs £50 a month to charge. You then see you are saving money.

Especially if you use the various mileage schemes if you have a business car the savings become even larger.

Yes but that is a lot of money per month just to have a new car wether EV or ICE. Buy a used car for £5000.00 and keep it for 5 years that is only £1000.00 per year or less than £90.00 per month. And you ain’t on the leasing hamster wheel for years just to have a new car. Older cars are much better made than they were 10 years ago with less to go wrong.

 

[pvr]

Only reason I ordered an EV was because as a director I can buy it from my gross income and not nett. That makes the saving worthwhile

 

[tiglon]

Only reason I ordered an EV was because as a director I can buy it from my gross income and not nett. That makes the saving worthwhile

And that's the only reason I would get one at the moment.

I often wonder what % of EVs you see are leased via a salary sacrifice scheme or similar...

 

[SonnyA85]

As I previously said I like many other people either don’t want to or can’t afford to spend over £40,000 on a new ev. So we would end up with an old ev with an end of life battery costing over £5000 for a new one. That’s the cost of a decent low ish mileage ice car. Yes I would love to buy an ev but it is not financially possible for many people.

Majority of people aren't buying them but leasing them.

When your leasing a car and it's £350 a month for the petrol and a model 3 is £450 a month. You then take into account that you spend £200 a month in fuel and the electric car costs £50 a month to charge. You then see you are saving money.

Especially if you use the various mileage schemes if you have a business car the savings become even larger.

Yes but that is a lot of money per month just to have a new car wether EV or ICE. Buy a used car for £5000.00 and keep it for 5 years that is only £1000.00 per year or less than £90.00 per month. And you ain’t on the leasing hamster wheel for years just to have a new car. Older cars are much better made than they were 10 years ago with less to go wrong.

People buying new cars aren't the type to spend £5k on a 15-20 year old car.

It's like saying to someone going on holiday to the Maldives that Blackpool is cheaper.

 

[True-Blue]

Majority of people aren't buying them but leasing them.

When your leasing a car and it's £350 a month for the petrol and a model 3 is £450 a month. You then take into account that you spend £200 a month in fuel and the electric car costs £50 a month to charge. You then see you are saving money.

Especially if you use the various mileage schemes if you have a business car the savings become even larger.

Yes but that is a lot of money per month just to have a new car wether EV or ICE. Buy a used car for £5000.00 and keep it for 5 years that is only £1000.00 per year or less than £90.00 per month. And you ain’t on the leasing hamster wheel for years just to have a new car. Older cars are much better made than they were 10 years ago with less to go wrong.

People buying new cars aren't the type to spend £5k on a 15-20 year old car.

It's like saying to someone going on holiday to the Maldives that Blackpool is cheaper.

Thought they were leasing them? And your argument was that they are cheaper?

Fairly sure the environmental impact of flying (or cruising) to the Maldives is much worse that driving to Blackpool in a 2nd hand non-electric car

I think a valid point here is that something like a 6 cylinder Z4 is capable of 200k miles with regular servicing.

Currently battery tech is flawed and has nowhere near that capability, and replacement battery costs are prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

So we have a so-called green tech, that is far from green to make and currently appears almost ‘disposable’ compared to previous ICE tech… because most people lease them??

 

[SonnyA85]

Yes but that is a lot of money per month just to have a new car wether EV or ICE. Buy a used car for £5000.00 and keep it for 5 years that is only £1000.00 per year or less than £90.00 per month. And you ain’t on the leasing hamster wheel for years just to have a new car. Older cars are much better made than they were 10 years ago with less to go wrong.

People buying new cars aren't the type to spend £5k on a 15-20 year old car.

It's like saying to someone going on holiday to the Maldives that Blackpool is cheaper.

Thought they were leasing them? And your argument was that they are cheaper?

Fairly sure the environmental impact of flying (or cruising) to the Maldives is much worse that driving to Blackpool in a 2nd hand non-electric car

I think a valid point here is that something like a 6 cylinder Z4 is capable of 200k miles with regular servicing.

Currently battery tech is flawed and has nowhere near that capability, and replacement battery costs are prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

So we have a so-called green tech, that is far from green to make and currently appears almost ‘disposable’ compared to previous ICE tech… because most people lease them??

Leasing or buying doesn't make a difference. People who buy or lease brand new cars aren't in the market for a £5k car.

It's cheaper than equivalent ice car when leasing especially through business mileage schemes.

You cannot compare a 20 year old car with a brand new EV.

Also batteries can be refurbished. I can get a refurbed battery for my lexus for £900

 

[mmm-five]

So, how does everyone afford these all-electric cars? Surely not every car driver can afford a brand new car - even if they are 'only leasing' one? Some people will need the £5k/10k/15k/20k used car price points (as there will also be some needing the ICE cars that are dumped below the £5k mark).

I know I can't...and I'm relatively well paid...but it's purely because I can't commit to any long-term lease as I don't know that I'll need a car for 24/36/48 months at a time...and I'd be stuck paying a lease on a car that's not being used...and to get the best price I'd either have to sign up to a longer lease, or restrict the mileage.

WITHOUT LOOKING...anyone have any idea how much a (for example) 3+21 month lease for a Hyundai Ioniq 5 would be (one above base 168kW / 77kWh with 256 mile range - to ensure I can drive the 210 miles to the office without having to stop for 30 mins on the way), if I was to return to say a 25,000 mile a year commute?

• less
• £450
• £600
• £750
• more

ETA: no-one answered, so here's the quote I got...

 

[True-Blue]

People buying new cars aren't the type to spend £5k on a 15-20 year old car.

It's like saying to someone going on holiday to the Maldives that Blackpool is cheaper.

Thought they were leasing them? And your argument was that they are cheaper?

Fairly sure the environmental impact of flying (or cruising) to the Maldives is much worse that driving to Blackpool in a 2nd hand non-electric car

I think a valid point here is that something like a 6 cylinder Z4 is capable of 200k miles with regular servicing.

Currently battery tech is flawed and has nowhere near that capability, and replacement battery costs are prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

So we have a so-called green tech, that is far from green to make and currently appears almost ‘disposable’ compared to previous ICE tech… because most people lease them??

Leasing or buying doesn't make a difference. People who buy or lease brand new cars aren't in the market for a £5k car.

It's cheaper than equivalent ice car when leasing especially through business mileage schemes.

You cannot compare a 20 year old car with a brand new EV.

Also batteries can be refurbished. I can get a refurbed battery for my lexus for £900

Is your Lexus fully electric? £900 seems way below any kind of indicative costs I can see anywhere.

What does this £900 include? Removal, refitting, VAT? And what sort of warranty does this give? Genuinely intrigued as everything I read suggests very significant battery replacement costs :?

 

[Scubaregs]

Someone is ploughing a lone furrow in this thread championing EV's and failing to convince anyone.

 

[SonnyA85]

Thought they were leasing them? And your argument was that they are cheaper?

Fairly sure the environmental impact of flying (or cruising) to the Maldives is much worse that driving to Blackpool in a 2nd hand non-electric car

I think a valid point here is that something like a 6 cylinder Z4 is capable of 200k miles with regular servicing.

Currently battery tech is flawed and has nowhere near that capability, and replacement battery costs are prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

So we have a so-called green tech, that is far from green to make and currently appears almost ‘disposable’ compared to previous ICE tech… because most people lease them??

Leasing or buying doesn't make a difference. People who buy or lease brand new cars aren't in the market for a £5k car.

It's cheaper than equivalent ice car when leasing especially through business mileage schemes.

You cannot compare a 20 year old car with a brand new EV.

Also batteries can be refurbished. I can get a refurbed battery for my lexus for £900

Is your Lexus fully electric? £900 seems way below any kind of indicative costs I can see anywhere.

What does this £900 include? Removal, refitting, VAT? And what sort of warranty does this give? Genuinely intrigued as everything I read suggests very significant battery replacement costs :?

It's a hybrid. And it's the cost of a full replacement refurbished battery.

You can remove and fit like you would any other battery. Disconnect. Remove and replace. Videos on YouTube.

Fully electric will obviously cost more but if I went to lexus and say I needed a new battery it's like £5k. Refurbished £900.

You go to Tesla and need a new battery it's £15k. You will also be able to once there are enough spares. Get a refurbished one for like £5k or around that.

The Lexus hybrid system has been around for 25 years now. That's why they are so cheap and the second hand market and forums plenty knowledgeable.

Same thing will happen to ev market. They aren't just going to take batteries and start sending them to landfill.

Only a few cells die. They can be replaced with cells from other non fully functional batteries. Like you take 10 batteries and turn them into 6-8 and give them another 10-15 years of use.

A guy in America uses one as a courier and has done 1 million miles in his with zero issues he does 100k miles per year as a courier.

The battery tech these days is nothing like the horror stories you hear people talking about

 

[mmm-five]

Someone is ploughing a lone furrow in this thread championing EV's and failing to convince anyone.

But I want one...as my commuter vehicle...and I'll keep the Z4MC as a fun/track/weekend car.

I'm just pointing out why it doesn't make financial sense to me right now (I can't buy anything for £15k that could replace my F31 320D). BMW do make an electric 3-series now (the i3...not that one...it's different to the original boxy model), but it's not available in the UK yet...and it's 4x my budget (based on the i4 starting at £53k).

 

[True-Blue]

So, how does everyone afford these all-electric cars? Surely not every car driver can afford a brand new car - even if they are 'only leasing' one? Some people will need the £5k/10k/15k/20k used car price points (as there will also be some needing the ICE cars that are dumped below the £5k mark).

I know I can't...and I'm relatively well paid...but it's purely because I can't commit to any long-term lease as I don't know that I'll need a car for 24/36/48 months at a time...and I'd be stuck paying a lease on a car that's not being used...and to get the best price I'd either have to sign up to a longer lease, or restrict the mileage.

WITHOUT LOOKING...anyone have any idea how much a (for example) 3+21 month lease for a Hyundai Ioniq 5 would be (one above base 168kW / 77kWh with 256 mile range - to ensure I can drive the 210 miles to the office without having to stop for 30 mins on the way), if I was to return to say a 25,000 mile a year commute?

• less
• £450
• £600
• £750
• more

ETA: no-one answered, so here's the quote I got...
2022-06-05_16-34-01.jpg

So, to rent that car for 50,000 miles over 24 months is £24k before servicing costs… and you have to hand it back

 

[Scubaregs]

But I want one...as my commuter vehicle...and I'll keep the Z4MC as a fun/track/weekend car.

I'm just pointing out why it doesn't make financial sense to me right now

Exactly, this is the crux of the matter, the cost of them compared to their petrol counterparts.

So, to rent that car for 50,000 miles over 24 months is £27k before servicing costs… and you have to hand it back

But it saves you money.........

 

[pvr]

It only saves you money if you can do it through a company.

I can deduct 100% against the company’s profits saving 21% corp tax, saves employers NI and saves me 34% dividend tax.

As an individual - no way, but this way does save me a lot of money but cannot be don’t by everyone of course

 

[True-Blue]

It only saves you money if you can do it through a company.

I can deduct 100% against the company’s profits saving 21% corp tax, saves employers NI and saves me 34% dividend tax.

As an individual - no way, but this way does save me a lot of money but cannot be don’t by everyone of course

I detected a hint of sarcasm in Scubaregs post

 

[Scubaregs]

It only saves you money if you can do it through a company.

I can deduct 100% against the company’s profits saving 21% corp tax, saves employers NI and saves me 34% dividend tax.

As an individual - no way, but this way does save me a lot of money but cannot be don’t by everyone of course

I detected a hint of sarcasm in Scubaregs post

Moi?