Rpi scoop and afe intake..

It seems that we've already got the Board of Directors sorted! EDIT and tea boy. :rofl: But, are any of you guys any good at laying up carbon-fibre?

It seems to me that if any parts are to be made they've got to be made of shiny carbon-fibre, rather than ABS plastic, to have real credibility with customers. Is that a correct assumption?

I've just dug out the comparison dyno graph of of the "ramcharger" I made for my Z3MC in 2008, comparing that mod to my already modded intake and exhaust system, as below. The figures are "at the wheels". The improvements that I've obtained with the Z4MC "ramcharger" are very similar, but a bit better, because the engine bay of the Z4MC is slightly more accommodating than that of the Z3MC, which has permitted me to utilise the space better.

MCouperamchargerimprovement_zps9bec1fe1.jpg



To see the effectiveness of this mod, this is a video of me in my Z3MC with "ramcharger" chasing another Z3MC at The Ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QogLBGnOLP0
 
exdos said:
As it stands at the moment, my invention could be sold as an aftermarket add-on or be incorporated into new car manufacture. I've spent a lot of time searching for patents of anything similar and so far found nothing that utilises what I'm doing. Therefore, right now, I'm unsure of the best course of action to take.
Click to expand...

If you really think you have a viable invention that needs protection then you should talk to a patent lawyer. If helpful I know one (well two actually) I could introduce you to.
 
exdos, markdesigns' car is full of shiny carbon fibre that I am pretty sure his company, or one closely affiliated, manufactures. Might be worth a chat with him ?

Until you identify markets clearly, as inkey$ has discussed, it's hard to know what will work best in the 'ooh-shiny' stakes. And from what's been said, cf and steel (or aluminium ?) have different aural qualities. Serious racers will want different things to, say, Woots - does it matter to them that it is cf and shiny, for any other reason than it is light and strong ? Does weight even matter as it's not a huge component ? People who spend more time showing their car than driving it will want cf, maybe. Perhaps they'd like chromed parts instead, and it will have to sound as nice as possible I guess. And if you're not making a business out of this on your own - so potentially licensing - do you even want to target the latter ? Arguably the people who will pay top dollar are those that understand and value the benefits of your product in terms of performance.

Might be really interesting to see a poll on here of what people would expect of an intake - looks, sound, performance etc. - vs. how they use their car... So you'd want to identify people with their comments and votes... Not sure how you'd do that. I guess an issue with doing a poll is that your market research becomes public...

Sorry, random thoughts, some of which are probably useless or obvious to those who know more than me about engines and intakes. All of my knowledge comes from you :lol:
 
tertius said:
If you really think you have a viable invention that needs protection then you should talk to a patent lawyer. If helpful I know one (well two actually) I could introduce you to.
Click to expand...
I agree. I've managed to keep the specifics of my ramcharger mod to myself, but I've decided that by the end of 2013, that I will act in one way or another. I might ask for those names. :thumbsup:
 
Bing said:
exdos, markdesigns' car is full of shiny carbon fibre that I am pretty sure his company, or one closely affiliated, manufactures. Might be worth a chat with him ?

Until you identify markets clearly, as inkey$ has discussed, it's hard to know what will work best in the 'ooh-shiny' stakes. And from what's been said, cf and steel (or aluminium ?) have different aural qualities. Serious racers will want different things to, say, Woots - does it matter to them that it is cf and shiny, for any other reason than it is light and strong ? Does weight even matter as it's not a huge component ? People who spend more time showing their car than driving it will want cf, maybe. Perhaps they'd like chromed parts instead, and it will have to sound as nice as possible I guess. And if you're not making a business out of this on your own - so potentially licensing - do you even want to target the latter ? Arguably the people who will pay top dollar are those that understand and value the benefits of your product in terms of performance.

Might be really interesting to see a poll on here of what people would expect of an intake - looks, sound, performance etc. - vs. how they use their car... So you'd want to identify people with their comments and votes... Not sure how you'd do that. I guess an issue with doing a poll is that your market research becomes public...

Sorry, random thoughts, some of which are probably useless or obvious to those who know more than me about engines and intakes. All of my knowledge comes from you :lol:
Click to expand...

Bing,

Great minds... I'd also been thinking about setting up a new thread on here as a piece of market research using a poll, like the thread on favourite colours. Personally, I think that doing the market research up front is possibly the best way to go, because, that way, it might be possible to draw-up a patent in a way that encompasses as many different variants of the invention in order to protect it as widely as possible. As I understand, it's important to think as far ahead as possible, to prevent others finding loopholes which might circumvent the patent, like Red Bull do with F1 regulations.

I could easily tell everyone how to get the gains shown in my graphs using various bits and pieces, costing little or nothing, in the same that I've done in my R&D, but any patent needs to dress all this up in a way that prevents anyone commercially producing the necessary parts as a package. So I think I need to consider all the different ways that I can exploit the fundamental principle I'm using in what I'm developing for all the different market types you've described, from "ooh! shiny" consumers to serious racers, so that any patent application I might make can close as many potential loopholes as possible. This is where a good Patent lawyer would be invaluable. Likewise, I'm also expecting the possibility that I might be reinventing a little known wheel...
 
Exdos, have you modelled your scoop in a cad design that could plug into a CFD system so you can model the airflow? Sounds like you're running close to where trial and error will cost a damn sight more than computer modelling...
 
Stuart Truman said:
Exdos, have you modelled your scoop in a cad design that could plug into a CFD system so you can model the airflow? Sounds like you're running close to where trial and error will cost a damn sight more than computer modelling...
Click to expand...
Stuart, who says it's a "scoop"? :wink:

If you saw the equipment I've used to get the gains for both the Z3MC and Z4MC, you'd be very surprised/shocked! Neither pieces of equipment have been designed by CFD and CAD/CAM systems. I've presently got a MKII prototype being professionally fabricated, which I hope to put on my Z4MC soon, which I hope will show further gains. If it does the job, then I will consider approaching a Patent lawyer to bring together all my workings. I'm not sure that I want to pursue the fabrication route myself, although at some stage, I will produce a very shiny CF part for myself, if nothing else. 8)
 
I guess what I mean is if you're interested in the intake system, having a clear understanding of the airflow through the engine up until it hits the factory standard parts is probably worthwhile. You might be missing out on a few extra horses :)
 
Stuart Truman said:
I guess what I mean is if you're interested in the intake system, having a clear understanding of the airflow through the engine up until it hits the factory standard parts is probably worthwhile. You might be missing out on a few extra horses :)
Click to expand...

Here, in the ghetto, I work with perspex and water to observe flow. For aerodynamics, pressure washers make wonderful alternative wind tunnels. 8)
 
Someone say carbon fibre? I'm always here to help if you need some cf treatment.
Woots, pm me if you want to keep info classified.
:police: :police: :police:
 
tertius said:
I've never heard of it before - how does DashDyno calculate power?
Click to expand...

This is what the DashDyno Manual states:

Theory of Operation
A dynamometer, or dyno for short, is used to measure the power produced by an engine. Traditionally automotive dynos were either crankshaft dynamometers or chassis dynamometers.
Crankshaft dynos require the motor to be removed from the vehicle. The power is measured directly at the crankshaft, or flywheel, and is not affected by transmission and axle powertrain losses. Vehicle manufacturers spec crankshaft power on new cars and trucks.
Chassis dynos test the entire vehicle. The vehicle is tied down to a large machine and the drive wheels are placed over a rotating drum. The chassis dyno tests the entire powertrain system, not just the crankshaft power. This is a more realistic test since it measures the power delivered to the wheels, not just the crankshaft. As such, the power figures measured are always less than with a crankshaft dyno since the powertrain causes some power loss.
DashDyno SPD™ Dynamometer
DashDyno uses the OBD II computer port located on all 1996 and newer automobiles to compute engine power, acceleration times, fuel economy, and more.
DashDyno tests the vehicle in a completely real world situation that includes powertrain losses, drag from disk brakes and wheel bearings, tire rolling resistance, etc. – everything a vehicle sees on the street.
Aerodynamic drag is compensated for within the calculations. So, whether your vehicle has the aerodynamics of a Chevy Suburban or a Porsche 911, the power calculations can correct for losses due to wind drag.
Weather conditions affect the output of an internal combustion motor. A correction factor is applied to compensate the measurements for weather conditions and elevation. The industry standard document for horsepower and torque corrections is SAE J1349. DashDyno applies this correction factor to all horsepower and torque measurements.
Dynamometer Features
By applying these correction factors to the dyno results, a vehicle dyno'd in Denver on a hot day will give the same results as a chilly day in San Diego. Using the DashDyno, measurements generated are comparable with one another the world over.
The dyno runs are performed in a single gear. Any gear will work, however increased accuracy is obtained if the software has an increased measurement duration. For instance, the time to accelerate from 1000 RPM to 5000 RPM in 1st gear is a shorter duration than it would be in 3rd gear. Therefore, using 2nd or 3rd gear for dyno runs offers longer test durations for greater accuracy.
Extensive comparison testing on a Dynojet chassis dynamometer has shown the DashDyno to be extremely accurate.

For each car that I datalog, I have a profile file of the car, as per the instructions in the manual as below, and anytime I do a recording I only need to correct the data in the profile for the environmental conditions of temperature, humidity and pressure, which I can obtain from a very local weather station.

Dyno Setup File
The Dyno Setup files are created on the Files > Create Files > Create Dyno Setup menu option. A wizard will walk you through setting each file attribute:
Weight – weight of the vehicle including passengers during the run.
Gear Ratio – the overall gear ratio of the vehicle, which includes transmission and axle.
Tire Diameter – the vehicle tire diameter.
Temperature – current outside temperature.
Elevation – elevation at the test track.
Humidity – current outside humidity.
Pressure – current outside altimeter pressure available from http://www.nws.noaa.gov. Altimeter pressure is different than barometric pressure.
Drag Coefficient – drag coefficient of vehicle.
Frontal Area – the frontal area of the vehicle.
Once Dyno Setup file is created, the parameters can be reviewed at Files > View Files > View Dyno Setup.
The software measures the gear ratio for you. See Gear Ratio Screen on page 41 for more information.

Even if the dyno figures produced by the DashDyno were not 100% accurate with any other dyno analysis method, they are nonetheless comparable with each and every other recording produced by the DashDyno itself. As such, the figures produced can show +ve or -ve gains, which have been proven to me to be very repeatable, with several different vehicles of different manufacture which I've datalogged. As reported before, I've had my Z3MC on the static dynos at Evolve and Powerstation (both well respected outfits) and the DashDyno recordings compare very well to the figures produced for my car by those dynos. I rely absolutely on the information that the ECU gives to the DashDyno, since it's the exact same information that the ECU uses in fuelling the car to produce optimum performance. I follow an empirical approach with my modding, although my mods are based on my decent understanding of the science involved: If a mod shows a gain, I go with the idea and if it shows no gain or a loss, I ditch the idea. My ramcharger mod has been devised entirely from my understanding of ram pressure and some lateral thinking to other areas of interest of which I know something about.

If you're interested in the DashDyno here's the company's website: http://www.auterraweb.com/
 
marksdesigns said:
Someone say carbon fibre? I'm always here to help if you need some cf treatment.
Woots, pm me if you want to keep info classified.
:police: :police: :police:
Click to expand...

Mark, Do you fabricate CF parts from scratch? Where are you based? Do you have a website? :thumbsup:
 
exdos said:
tertius said:
I've never heard of it before - how does DashDyno calculate power?
Click to expand...

This is what the DashDyno Manual states:

Theory of Operation
A dynamometer, or dyno for short, is used to measure the power produced by an engine. Traditionally automotive dynos were either crankshaft dynamometers or chassis dynamometers.
Crankshaft dynos require the motor to be removed from the vehicle. The power is measured directly at the crankshaft, or flywheel, and is not affected by transmission and axle powertrain losses. Vehicle manufacturers spec crankshaft power on new cars and trucks.
Chassis dynos test the entire vehicle. The vehicle is tied down to a large machine and the drive wheels are placed over a rotating drum. The chassis dyno tests the entire powertrain system, not just the crankshaft power. This is a more realistic test since it measures the power delivered to the wheels, not just the crankshaft. As such, the power figures measured are always less than with a crankshaft dyno since the powertrain causes some power loss.
DashDyno SPD™ Dynamometer
DashDyno uses the OBD II computer port located on all 1996 and newer automobiles to compute engine power, acceleration times, fuel economy, and more.
DashDyno tests the vehicle in a completely real world situation that includes powertrain losses, drag from disk brakes and wheel bearings, tire rolling resistance, etc. – everything a vehicle sees on the street.
Aerodynamic drag is compensated for within the calculations. So, whether your vehicle has the aerodynamics of a Chevy Suburban or a Porsche 911, the power calculations can correct for losses due to wind drag.
Weather conditions affect the output of an internal combustion motor. A correction factor is applied to compensate the measurements for weather conditions and elevation. The industry standard document for horsepower and torque corrections is SAE J1349. DashDyno applies this correction factor to all horsepower and torque measurements.
Dynamometer Features
By applying these correction factors to the dyno results, a vehicle dyno'd in Denver on a hot day will give the same results as a chilly day in San Diego. Using the DashDyno, measurements generated are comparable with one another the world over.
The dyno runs are performed in a single gear. Any gear will work, however increased accuracy is obtained if the software has an increased measurement duration. For instance, the time to accelerate from 1000 RPM to 5000 RPM in 1st gear is a shorter duration than it would be in 3rd gear. Therefore, using 2nd or 3rd gear for dyno runs offers longer test durations for greater accuracy.
Extensive comparison testing on a Dynojet chassis dynamometer has shown the DashDyno to be extremely accurate.

For each car that I datalog, I have a profile file of the car, as per the instructions in the manual as below, and anytime I do a recording I only need to correct the data in the profile for the environmental conditions of temperature, humidity and pressure, which I can obtain from a very local weather station.

Dyno Setup File
The Dyno Setup files are created on the Files > Create Files > Create Dyno Setup menu option. A wizard will walk you through setting each file attribute:
Weight – weight of the vehicle including passengers during the run.
Gear Ratio – the overall gear ratio of the vehicle, which includes transmission and axle.
Tire Diameter – the vehicle tire diameter.
Temperature – current outside temperature.
Elevation – elevation at the test track.
Humidity – current outside humidity.
Pressure – current outside altimeter pressure available from http://www.nws.noaa.gov. Altimeter pressure is different than barometric pressure.
Drag Coefficient – drag coefficient of vehicle.
Frontal Area – the frontal area of the vehicle.
Once Dyno Setup file is created, the parameters can be reviewed at Files > View Files > View Dyno Setup.
The software measures the gear ratio for you. See Gear Ratio Screen on page 41 for more information.

Even if the dyno figures produced by the DashDyno were not 100% accurate with any other dyno analysis method, they are nonetheless comparable with each and every other recording produced by the DashDyno itself. As such, the figures produced can show +ve or -ve gains, which have been proven to me to be very repeatable, with several different vehicles of different manufacture which I've datalogged. As reported before, I've had my Z3MC on the static dynos at Evolve and Powerstation (both well respected outfits) and the DashDyno recordings compare very well to the figures produced for my car by those dynos. I rely absolutely on the information that the ECU gives to the DashDyno, since it's the exact same information that the ECU uses in fuelling the car to produce optimum performance. I follow an empirical approach with my modding, although my mods are based on my decent understanding of the science involved: If a mod shows a gain, I go with the idea and if it shows no gain or a loss, I ditch the idea. My ramcharger mod has been devised entirely from my understanding of ram pressure and some lateral thinking to other areas of interest of which I know something about.

If you're interested in the DashDyno here's the company's website: http://www.auterraweb.com/
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff, I had found their website but hadn't found an answer as to how it allowed for drag, which it obviously does using the drag coefficient and frontal area.

It doesn't mention GPS, does it rely entirely on the OBD port data for actual performance? In which case do you use a measured tyre diameter or a manufacturer figure? I guess tyre wear is a factor to consider.

Regarding your modifications if (as the name suggests) you are using ram pressure is the vehicle speed not a key consideration? And one that would not be seen on a chassis dyno.

Sorry for all the questions, but it is a fascinating topic.
 
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