Roof movement, not usual question I think, but maybe it is

[thespannerman]

My roof works, but it is really slow to start to open, you need to give it a push with your hand to get it going. Closes no problem at all, quite quick. Checked oil level, as pump had been moved into the boot, and this seemed fine, so after reading numerous posts on here, bit the bullet and brought a new pump and motor.

Yep, no difference, so one expensive mistake, but hey ho.

It unlocks fine before struggling to move.

Apart from the pump/motor, there doesn’t look much else to the system other than the rams. Could it be these failing?

Also, I can see the fitting for the release cable, but can see what it is, or should be, acting on.

Al

 

[enuff_zed]

I assume you are certain that when it unlocks, it does immediately come clear of the windscreen rail? Not slightly sticking at all?
If so, and if there's definitely the correct amount of hydraulic fluid, then I can only see the rams being the culprit.
They do have to pull it back quite a bit 'over-centre' as it were. Imagine trying to lift something with your fingertips simply by bending your arm up at the elbow, with it straight out from your shoulder. Compare that with then pushing the same weight back out again.
The extra effort required to open the roof is possibly forcing fluid past the seals in the rams?

 

[thespannerman]

Yep comes clear of the screen rail.

So, when I replaced the pump, I moved the black plastic part over that’s part of the release mechanism, but wondered how it operated as I couldn’t see what it did. Just been and had another look, and it does nothing. Whoever moved the pump to the boot seems to have “lost” some internal part. The end of the Bowden cable isn’t attached to anything,

So, when (if all the right parts are fitted) you pull the red handle, does this push in, or let out the brass plunger on the pump ( looks like a small brass hex head bolt), or does it do something else.

I am wondering if this is part of my problem, if it thinks the roof is “released” for manual operation, or would it not move under electrical operation at all in that case

Al

 

[enuff_zed]

Yep comes clear of the screen rail.

So, when I replaced the pump, I moved the black plastic part over that’s part of the release mechanism, but wondered how it operated as I couldn’t see what it did. Just been and had another look, and it does nothing. Whoever moved the pump to the boot seems to have “lost” some internal part. The end of the Bowden cable isn’t attached to anything,

So, when (if all the right parts are fitted) you pull the red handle, does this push in, or let out the brass plunger on the pump ( looks like a small brass hex head bolt), or does it do something else.

I am wondering if this is part of my problem, if it thinks the roof is “released” for manual operation, or would it not move under electrical operation at all in that case

Al

Sure one of the roof experts will answer more precisely, but I'm pretty sure pulling the manual release completely disengages the hydraulics and nothing would happen.

 

[thespannerman]

End of my cable looks like this:



Not attached to anything
Al

 

[Zulu4]

Number 5 explained how the brass plunger works here:
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129833

 

[enuff_zed]

Maybe, with the motor in the boot, the previous owner thought the remote release wouldn't be needed?

 

[thespannerman]

Yep, that looks like the case, as I have just checked and the plunger moves in and out ok. It looks like pulling the cable would (if the parts were still there) push the plunger in, so it looks like it’s a ram issue for me.

Can these be changed without removing the roof?

Al

 

[SteBrown91]

I had a similar issue with mine, I basically dripped a bit of 3in1 oil on anything I could get to that moves/hinges etc on the front of the roof, and once that soaked in and the roof had been used a few times it seemed to work okay again.

 

[enuff_zed]

I had a similar issue with mine, I basically dripped a bit of 3in1 oil on anything I could get to that moves/hinges etc on the front of the roof, and once that soaked in and the roof had been used a few times it seemed to work okay again.

That was why I initially asked if it was clearing the top rail ok.
I had a similar issue with the hooks not quite disengaging, which a smear of vaseline cured.
In this case though, it sounds as though it's unhooking, just struggling to start the journey rearwards.

 

[SteBrown91]

I had a similar issue with mine, I basically dripped a bit of 3in1 oil on anything I could get to that moves/hinges etc on the front of the roof, and once that soaked in and the roof had been used a few times it seemed to work okay again.

That was why I initially asked if it was clearing the top rail ok.
I had a similar issue with the hooks not quite disengaging, which a smear of vaseline cured.
In this case though, it sounds as though it's unhooking, just struggling to start the journey rearwards.

Mine was sometimes not clearing the rail, but then sometimes clearing the rail and giving up/needing a helping palm to start moving.

 

[thespannerman]

I guess I am being overly hopeful that is was something other than the rams, but I have just been and opened the roof to just over half way, and stopped it there to take a look at some lubrication on the hinges, and the roof would move down by hand very easily, even dropping back down to the fully open position under its own weight. I wouldn’t have thought it would do that if oil wasn’t getting past the ram seals.

Al

 

[enuff_zed]

I guess I am being overly hopeful that is was something other than the rams, but I have just been and opened the roof to just over half way, and stopped it there to take a look at some lubrication on the hinges, and the roof would move down by hand very easily, even dropping back down to the fully open position under its own weight. I wouldn’t have thought it would do that if oil wasn’t getting past the ram seals.

Al

I think they do sag down slowly, but if yours didn't even have the decency to wait a while then that could be the issue.

 

[Zulu4]

I guess I am being overly hopeful that is was something other than the rams, but I have just been and opened the roof to just over half way, and stopped it there to take a look at some lubrication on the hinges, and the roof would move down by hand very easily, even dropping back down to the fully open position under its own weight. I wouldn’t have thought it would do that if oil wasn’t getting past the ram seals.

Al

I think they do sag down slowly, but if yours didn't even have the decency to wait a while then that could be the issue.

I agree, it shouldn't fall down quickly under its own weight. It should close very slowly without power
( without the emergency release pulled.)

 

[DMike]

My roof, which is working fine, also falls down slowly, in minutes, if stopped half open.

If the rams are failing so that the roof falls open by it’s own weight, wouldn’t that mean seals on both sides would have to fail? A half-open bypass valve would be a single point of failure - are you sure the valve pin moves in/out all the way? If the bowden cable is now reattached (?), have you tried to adjust the white plastic adjuster thingy in the cable?

 

[thespannerman]

The pump is a new one, and I haven’t attached the bracket with the Bowden cable as a previous owner seems to have removed the internal part that operates the valve so it’s pointless now anyway..

I agree that it implies both seals going ( which is why I thought it was the motor/pump so replaced this) but then they are both 18 years old.

Al

 

[enuff_zed]

I agree that it implies both seals going ( which is why I thought it was the motor/pump so replaced this) but then they are both 18 years old.

Not necessarily. Without the pump running the rams just basically become the same as the rams that hold the boot or bonnet of any car open.
From experience with my older motors I know that if one fails then the other doesn't have the strength to hold it up on its own.
However, at 18 years old, you'd be wasting time trying to diagnose which one is knackered. I think you'd need to change both.

I am surprised none of the roof experts have joined in on this thread so far though?