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[Deleted member 32480]

Waiting for the stats to arrive!

Never change Ronk.

covid.jpg

I think you are supposed to put your selfie in your profile picture buddy.

 

[ronk]

Waiting for the stats to arrive!

Never change Ronk.

Kettle/Pot/Black!

 

[Flyingfifer]

I do wonder though, why the BBC feels the need to do a report on some random nobody 5000 miles away, gotta sell that narrative somehow!

Probably the same reason you (or mgrlane) have posted about 'some random nobody' thousands of miles away that has suffered adverse reaction to a covid vaccine...

'gotta sell that narrative somehow!...

You talking about that lassie in England who is having to learn to walk again? Think your geography might be a bit off that being the case.

In terms of your comparison thats about as off as your distances, I'm not trying to tell people not to get the vaccine or rubbish the vaccine etc etc I am a single human being simply providing supporting evidence to back up my personal decision not to get the vaccine (in this specific instance it was pointing out that there isnt "zero risk" with getting the vaccine as some had suggested), a decision that has been met with disdain and personal attacks, I am not a gargantuan organisation that is tax payer funded, worldwide and pumps its "news" into any and every home it can.

 

[PerryGunn]

I do wonder though, why the BBC feels the need to do a report on some random nobody 5000 miles away, gotta sell that narrative somehow!

Probably the same reason you (or mgrlane) have posted about 'some random nobody' thousands of miles away that has suffered adverse reaction to a covid vaccine...

'gotta sell that narrative somehow!...

...
You talking about that lassie in England who is having to learn to walk again?
...

OK, in that case, replace 'thousands' with 'hundreds' - your reply is a prime example of 'argumentum ad hominem' as a bit of hyperbole concerning the distances involved doesn't make it any less true that you constantly pursue a fear/uncertainty/doubt agenda.

 

[Flyingfifer]

OK, in that case, replace 'thousands' with 'hundreds' - your reply is a prime example of 'argumentum ad hominem' as a bit of hyperbole concerning the distances involved doesn't make it any less true that you constantly pursue a fear/uncertainty/doubt agenda.

Sure mate... sure
You might want to go and brush up on your fallacies Here is a useful site
That irony at trying to claim a logical fallacy is being used to avoid the argument in an attempt to completely avoid the argument though... 10/10

In terms of how I "constantly pursue a fear/uncertainty/doubt agenda" I have expressed my own doubts and raised the demonstrable uncertainty of the vaccine in response to claims of its absolute certainty but have at no point tried to dissuade others or used fear in an attempt to argue against the vaccine, if you disagree please do provide some evidence for your spurious claim.

I have said this so many times I'm starting to think I should have it pre-typed out for a simple copy paste job...
I am not anti vaccine
I have argued in favour of the vaccine for others (including my mum and dad who are now both vaccinated)
I am not "stupid" or "immoral" or a "conspiracy theorist", I simply decided that on balance the risk reward balance isnt there for me
I personally dont want the vaccine and want people to be able to make up their own minds without being subjected to personal attacks (ad hominem :wink: )

 

[PerryGunn]

You might want to go and brush up on your fallacies Here is a useful site
...
I personally dont want the vaccine and want people to be able to make up their own minds without being subjected to personal attacks (ad hominem :wink: )

Unfortunately not, the 'personal attack' is only one form of an 'ad hominem', the most common being
abusive ad hominem - Abusive fallacy
Credentials fallacy
Poisoning the well
circumstantial ad hominem - Appeal to motive
tu quoque - Appeal to hypocrisy
Association fallacy
argumentum ergo decedo - Traitorous critic fallacy
Tone policing

Your previous reply was an example of the 'Credentials fallacy' with a bit of 'Poisoning the well' thrown in i.e. attacking 'Thousands' and using the geographical discrepancy as a point of leverage.

:wink:

 

[Flyingfifer]

You appear to be mixing up "logical fallacy" with "ad hominem" they are very different things, ad hom is a specific type of logical fallacy.

Asking for proof of a claim isnt a "credentials fallacy" either, you have it backwards, again that website can help you figure these out Burden of proof

Poisoning the well re the distance I will give you with the caveat that sass was answered with sass

Now as much as I would love to discuss the intricacies of logical fallacies and their correct and incorrect uses with you this isnt the place and you have used it to try to deflect attention from your claim that I "constantly pursue a fear/uncertainty/doubt agenda", still waiting for your justification and evidence for said claim...

 

[PerryGunn]

... try to deflect attention from your claim that I "constantly pursue a fear/uncertainty/doubt agenda", still waiting for your justification and evidence for said claim...

OK, I'm a bit busy today and don't have the time to get into a drawn-out discussion on this, but while eating a sandwich for, a somewhat delayed, lunch I quickly sketched back over some of your posts on various covid/vaccination threads and grabbed some comments that jumped out at me.

You'll probably claim that these are quoted out-of-context and people need to read the whole thread but...

This is my concern, because of the speed at which these were fired out the door, they simply have not been subject to the normal level of extreme testing that others have. The sudden realisation of things like clotting is a perfect example of that.
...
Furthermore there are now concerns that in addition to the Astra Zenica both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines also appear to cause blood clots at a similar level (a minuscule level BUT this is the issue of pushing something through testing, problems appear afterwards)
...
If side effects appear down the line you're utterly f*cked
...
...most vaccines go through a long process of testing on animals over a long period of time to track long term repercussions of their use as well as long term studies into human exposure. Unless we have a time machine squirreled away its impossible that this extent of testing was completed.... might also be why there was an legal invulnerability added to protect the companies should long term side effects appear.
...
To repeat, yet again, for the ??th time, we know for a fact that the virus has a very low risk for the young, we have absolutely no idea whatsoever what, if any or how severe any side effects of the vaccine might be.

There is an active shooter, you're in a safe room, you have a 98.8% chance of surviving, but you need to stay where you are and not escape or you can take a chance and run for the door, that will get you to safety from this shooter but the risks are completely unknown and there may be another shooter outside.... what do you do?
...
Lets try this, using the exact same logic Tim, do you know 100% with absolute certainty that there is no long term side effects whatsoever, potentially even one that you may simply die from?

You say it "dramatically reduces the .. potential death" I have a 98% chance to live through it if I even catch the thing... thats a 2% chance of death and only a 10% chance of Long COVID

We have absolutely no idea at all of any potential long term side effects, even in animal testing we only have, at MOST, a year of advanced notice.
...
A fit and healthy young woman now suffering from Functional Neurological Disorder following getting the vaccine, she will have to learn to walk again. You and others have touted the line of "its the intelligent thing to do to get the vaccine, why take the risk" yet here we have a woman who was perfectly healthy who may now never have a normal life.

Just the other day, when ronk posted regarding an unvaccinated 34 year-old who caught covid and subsequently died, your response was to make light of it, ending with
'I do wonder though, why the BBC feels the need to do a report on some random nobody 5000 miles away, gotta sell that narrative somehow!'


I'm happy to admit that you've said on a number of occasions that you don't want to take the vaccine but wouldn't try to stop anyone else if they wanted it but, intentional or not, your posts contain an undercurrent of fear, uncertainty & doubt regarding the vaccine. While you may say that you don't intend to spread FUD regarding the vaccine, there is often a difference between the intent of the writer and the perception of the reader.

 

[sp3ctre]

Interesting debate... when people say it's none of my business whether they take the vaccine or not I understand the thought process. The problem is we haven't (in our lifetime) experienced anything like this before and there are other factors at play.

People are complaining about vaccine passports etc and I understand the concern but I also see the other side.

The issue simply isn't people who have been vaccinated feeling threatened by those who refuse to get vaccinated. From that perspective I've been double vaccinated so I don't care. The very real issue is someone who refuses to get vaccinated and decides "to take their chances" taking valuable ICU space and ventilators and putting at risk those who need them (car crash victims and other non-covid related things).

If you could refuse the vaccine and also waiver your right to the ICU and ventilators I'd say knock yerself out.... but as always, it's not so simple, is it?

 

[AlienZed]

:heart: :heart: Kinhell this thread is war and peace .
Me im a 70+ double vacc,and glad i am .
Currently sat on mi patio in spain with mi old friend Mr Guinness,
And yes we have our covid passports, wouldnt have bin here without em !
On tother side of coin 2 of our sons 40 + fully vacc, and 1 50+ ,who believes its all a conspiracy . Ffs
So each to his own .
You getting dun wullie ,or are you a secret jabber

 

[Deleted member 32480]

Interesting debate... when people say it's none of my business whether they take the vaccine or not I understand the thought process. The problem is we haven't (in our lifetime) experienced anything like this before and there are other factors at play.

This is interesting. We were invited over to lunch at a friends house a couple of weeks ago and my partner felt compelled to tell our friends that we were not vaccinated. Myself, I said it was none of their bloody business... So I can see how it divides people.

The issue simply isn't people who have been vaccinated feeling threatened by those who refuse to get vaccinated. From that perspective I've been double vaccinated so I don't care. The very real issue is someone who refuses to get vaccinated and decides "to take their chances" taking valuable ICU space and ventilators and putting at risk those who need them (car crash victims and other non-covid related things).

If you could refuse the vaccina and also waiver your right to the ICU and ventilators I'd say knock yerself out.... but as always, it's not so simple, is it?

We could also flip this over. You and I know the various short term side effects (they are generally buried but still searchable). Do you think it would be acceptable if we say you had a severe allergic reaction or myocarditis or say pericarditis in the short term- knowing that these are side effects of the jab? If you go deaf (500+ in the UK have already)- should it be ok to deny you treatment as you made the informed decision to take the covid therapy treatment?

ref for deafness:
https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports#[object%20Object]

 

[john-e89]

The vaccine isn’t 100% effective as yet, it also does suppress transmission. They are friends…? I’d say it’s absolutely their bloody business if your going in their home…!! They might have a no vaccine no entry rule which is their choice just as you not having the jab is yours.

 

[Perjorative]

If you go deaf (500+ in the UK have already)- should it be ok to deny you treatment as you made the informed decision to take the covid therapy treatment?

ref for deafness:
https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports#[object%20Object]

You might also want to look at this from the US - dated March 2021
https://www.drugdiscoverytrends.com/no-clear-link-between-covid-19-vaccines-and-sudden-hearing-loss/

At the beginning it says that 'Sudden onset sensorineural hearing loss — sometimes referred to as sudden deafness — occurs in anywhere from 11 to 77 per 100,000 people per year in the U.S.'.

Assuming that these numbers would also be broadly reflective of the UK population, the upper/lower figures of 11 & 77 per 100,000 applied to the 38million people in the UK who have received both doses would indicate that between 418 and 2,926 of those people would experience sudden deafness in any given year (the numbers are correspondingly greater if you include those with a single dose of vaccine).

Even if we stipulated that second doses have only been given for the last six months and halve the yearly numbers to give a range of 209 to 1463, the 500+ cases you quote are well within the expected range and would be difficult to causally link to the vaccine.

 

[Deleted member 32480]

The vaccine isn’t 100% effective as yet, it also does suppress transmission. They are friends…? I’d say it’s absolutely their bloody business if your going in their home…!! They might have a no vaccine no entry rule which is their choice just as you not having the jab is yours.

This empathises the point that it's splits people's opinion.

I don't think that I have the right to know their vaccination status. I expect that if people are unwell for them not to come and that's about it.

I was at a 30th Birthday party this weekend and there was around 20 of us there at one point. I don't think anyone was asking others of their vaccination status. In fact I can't even remember anyone talking about covid.

Do you have a policy in your home John that you want to see proof of your old pal's having a flu jab before you let them in?

 

[john-e89]

The vaccine isn’t 100% effective as yet, it also does suppress transmission. They are friends…? I’d say it’s absolutely their bloody business if your going in their home…!! They might have a no vaccine no entry rule which is their choice just as you not having the jab is yours.

This empathises the point that it's splits people's opinion.

I don't think that I have the right to know their vaccination status. I expect that if people are unwell for them not to come and that's about it.

I was at a 30th Birthday party this weekend and there was around 20 of us there at one point. I don't think anyone was asking others of their vaccination status. In fact I can't even remember anyone talking about covid.

Do you have a policy in your home John that you want to see proof of your old pal's having a flu jab before you let them in?

Flu…? No. We have the flu jab.

I have a very good friend whose on the bench about covid vaccine and has told me from day one. He also is quite happy not to come in if we don’t want him to, but at least he’s told us. All our other friends have had both jabs, we know because they tell us. I don’t think it’s too difficult to do that out of respect.

 

[Deleted member 32480]

I have a very good friend whose on the bench about covid vaccine and has told me from day one. He also is quite happy not to come in if we don’t want him to, but at least he’s told us. All our other friends have had both jabs, we know because they tell us. I don’t think it’s too difficult to do that out of respect.

Do you let your friend in your house that hasn't had a jab?

 

[john-e89]

I have a very good friend whose on the bench about covid vaccine and has told me from day one. He also is quite happy not to come in if we don’t want him to, but at least he’s told us. All our other friends have had both jabs, we know because they tell us. I don’t think it’s too difficult to do that out of respect.

Do you let your friend in your house that hasn't had a jab?

Yes as we both live in the same rural village with no cases, he’s also building his own house and doesn’t go anywhere, he hates towns.

Why don’t you think it’s right that you tell your friends about your non vaccine..?

 

[Deleted member 32480]

Why don’t you think it’s right that you tell your friends about your non vaccine..?

If a friend asks me then I am not going to not tell them but I do think it's non of my business your (or their) vaccination status.

Lets face it- everyone is spreading it and it's very marginal the efficiency of the "jab" in preventing people passing it on. I would be more concerned of my "city rat" friends who live in apartment blocks and shared offices coming over that were double vaccinated than another hermit like me who is unvaccinated and works from home.

I am interested to see where it stops in terms of your right to know someones medical history- I did ask you if felt like you needed to know if your mates had a flu jab? Kills alot of people each year so knowing that they have had one might help protect you?

I am not trying to pick at you, it's really interesting hearing other views on the subject.

 

[john-e89]

Why don’t you think it’s right that you tell your friends about your non vaccine..?

If a friend asks me then I am not going to not tell them but I do think it's non of my business your (or their) vaccination status.

Lets face it- everyone is spreading it and it's very marginal the efficiency of the "jab" in preventing people passing it on. I would be more concerned of my "city rat" friends who live in apartment blocks and shared offices coming over that were double vaccinated than another hermit like me who is unvaccinated and works from home.

I am interested to see where it stops in terms of your right to know someones medical history- I did ask you if felt like you needed to know if your mates had a flu jab? Kills alot of people each year so knowing that they have had one might help protect you?

I am not trying to pick at you, it's really interesting hearing other views on the subject.

No picking even thought of.

There’s a huge difference in knowing people's medical history which of course is private unless related through choice. Kidney failure, or liver damage for eg, doesn’t have any transmission, so who needs to know..? I don’t have to go into the differences between flu and Covid with you so no need. My own view is if you’re going to someone’s house then I think it’s only fair to tell them whether you’re/ me/whoever is vaccinated or not, it’s simply a respect thing as this virus is having catastrophic effects as you know. Just my view.

 

[Deleted member 32480]

My own view is if you’re going to someone’s house then I think it’s only fair to tell them whether you’re/ me/whoever is vaccinated or not, it’s simply a respect thing as this virus is having catastrophic effects as you know. Just my view.

I could possibly see a case for saying if you have had covid or not (there are very few re-infections after you have built natural immunity) but personally I don't see the jabbers as any less risk marginally than the un-jabbers.