Machine monkeys zed

[GuidoK]

MOT test is paltry and lacks detail so wouldn't spot this.

you don't test brake performance on an MOT in the uk?
I did't know that. I thought that was pretty much standard in all of europe, testing it on a brake tester and measuring the kN of brake force.

Measuring up and chopping something together is not on the same level of 'design'.

Most designs are chopped togheter. My bbk, sold by a very very large bmw parts distributer, is basically a 1 series caliper, a 3 series disc and a home made bracket. So also a buch of various parts bodged togheter.
And no test certificate for the bracket btw. Nor have I ever seen one on a bbk (except when sold in germany, as I stated before, they have the obligatory TüV teilgutachten).
Sure the bracket is nicely painted and such, but if you have enough technical knowledge, you;ll learn to see what design is and isn't. How it looks is of no importance.

There's a small notch near the top bolt in the picture on the right hand side which could act as a stress raiser and propagate a crack. In all likelihood the whole thing will be fine but it's not without its risks.

Yes 'could' and 'maybe'. Those words don't mean anything in a technical and foremost factual discussion.
I can 'could and maybe' any aspect of any product. A fool can ask more questions than seven wise men can answer. That doesnt mean that it's a badly made product.

If it was me ..

But it isn't you now is it. It's MM. He is the one with the skills here to pull it off. Not you.

 

[RJS-Z4]

MOT test is paltry and lacks detail so wouldn't spot this.

Measuring up and chopping something together is not on the same level of 'design'.

There's a small notch near the top bolt in the picture on the right hand side which could act as a stress raiser and propagate a crack. In all likelihood the whole thing will be fine but it's not without its risks.

If it was me I'd directly say to my insurer 'will you insure me for my brakes which include a home produced bracket'. See what they say...

In the nicest possible way, I bet you're a riot on a night out.

 

[GuidoK]

When you store your old calipers, dont forget to spray some penetrating fluid or something oily like that in the brake line holes (so in the piston) and inbetween the dust boots on the other side. There will be condensation in the piston and the brake fluid is hygroscopic so it doesnt protect against rust.

 

[Steve84N]

Yes an MOT tests braking force but it doesn't test the integrity of an install.

Fortunately, RJS-Z4 you'll never have to endure a night out with me.

All I pointed out to begin with was whether this home brew brake job was declared on insurance. I wasn't looking to berate MM's work but when questioned I pointed out why an insurance company might take a dim view. It's not my car and yes of course we can all do what we want but when you post in a public arena you are in effect inviting comment.

You are clearly knowledgeable GuidoK but that doesn't mean the rest of us are idiots, I did a mechanical engineering degree so I'm well aware of the difference between looks and function. Formally designing a piece in my mind involves considering the forces at play and accounting for these in the material and shape etc. Being a skilled machinist is a separate skillset. Nevertheless, as I said hopefully it's over engineered and will never be a problem.

 

[GuidoK]

Yes but your argument is still a 'what if' argument.
Do you check&torque every bolt in the undercarriage of your car before you go on a drive? Why not? MOT also doesnt check that, so there could be something massively wrong. I mean what if......
'What if' doesnt help a discussion in any way.
I also dont see why a machinist wouldn't be able to think about the forces in play when he makes something.
When something is 'designed' it doesnt mean that its good or better for that part.
I've had 'formally designed' parts on my car (performance parts) that have failed massively on the design part of that product (so no production fault, everybody who bought that product had it fail in the same way over different lengths of time).
It's either good or it isnt. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the recipe.

 

[Steve84N]

You don't check every bolt because the torque setting is designed to last. Yes, there could be something wrong but that's the risk of driving. To what extent we manage that is down to each person.

As I said my original post was meant to be more of a friendly reminder about insurance than suggesting it will fail. Companies making a fast buck on cobbled together parts without enough structural design knowledge is another league from a major manufacturer's resources. BMW may also get it wrong on occasion but it's very rarely a safety issue.

 

[GuidoK]

I think a broken spring is still an MOT failure.

 

[RJS-Z4]

Yes an MOT tests braking force but it doesn't test the integrity of an install.

Fortunately, RJS-Z4 you'll never have to endure a night out with me.

All I pointed out to begin with was whether this home brew brake job was declared on insurance. I wasn't looking to berate MM's work but when questioned I pointed out why an insurance company might take a dim view. It's not my car and yes of course we can all do what we want but when you post in a public arena you are in effect inviting comment.

You are clearly knowledgeable GuidoK but that doesn't mean the rest of us are idiots, I did a mechanical engineering degree so I'm well aware of the difference between looks and function. Formally designing a piece in my mind involves considering the forces at play and accounting for these in the material and shape etc. Being a skilled machinist is a separate skillset. Nevertheless, as I said hopefully it's over engineered and will never be a problem.

But the fundamental issue here is that you're assuming that the hundreds of BBK sellers on eBay will have had their products tested and certified in some way. Thousands of people will have fitted these kits to cars all accross the country, they'll have rang their insurance and informed them of having fitted some brembo brakes.

At no point will this person have declared what sort of bracket they've fitted, just that they've fitted brembo brakes.

Mat's knowledge as a metal worker and machinist is probably better than most making these kits, so I'd say he'll be just fine.

 

[markplant]

Could this go back to been a thread about what the monkey is doing, jmo

 

[GuidoK]

Maybe the reason I'm coming on so strong is that I also have build my own brake setup (rear), and every time when you do something like that and post it on a forum there are always people who question everything. 'Have you thought about brake bias' 'what if it fails' etc etc like youre a complete moron and havent thought about anything. Like the first thing you're about to do when it's finished is going on a busy motorway and apparantly not test it on a deserted piece of road etc.
And that ONLY happens with brakes.
If you do things with control arms, differentials, shocks and what not, what can be equally dangerous (even swapping out something can be as dangerous as fabricating something), everyone is silent. But the 'brake' word is like a red rag to a bull somehow.

but indeed this is mm's topic
All I can say is that it looks pretty good to me.
apart from the painting

 

[Machine monkey]

Wow this gas sparked some emotion has it not!
Yes it will be declared to my insurance company. As all my mods are. Will I tell them I had the bracket no. As Guidok has said there are quite a few DIY or home made brake kits out there. And I bet they don't tell there insurance the kit was brought from an unknown on eBay for instance.

Steve I am sure your just concerned and trying to help. I am fully aware that what I am doing carries risk. And I gave not gone into this lightly. I have got help from people that i trust. My Mae Chris had been building race cars for 10+ years. My boss has been welding for 35 years. And I have talked it over with a guy at work who I really respect from the design department.

I have checked it and I am very happy with what I have made. I will give you a quick rundown of how I have made them.
1 I cut the top half of the lug a few mm above the bolt hole.
2 I then counter bored the hole to except the head of a M12 cap head bolt.
3 I then had to machine the bolt to get it all to fit right.
4 the extended lug was made from one piece of mild steel. It was 20mm x25mm x50mm it had a section machined down to fit under the spindle lug. 4mm thick with a m12 hole.
5 I then bolted the bits together. And they where then welded together so they are on piece. So they are not only bolted but welded together. I made them this way so there are 2 joints the bolt and weld. Also it increased the area to be welded a 10mm long veld us stronger than a 5mm one?
6 I then made and welded the brace from the top lug to the bottom. Just for triangulation and more strength.
7 I then drilled the holes.

The lugs are now braced and about 7mm thicker. Everyone who has seen them thinks they are over engineered.

By the way they fit and no fouling any other components. Just waiting on brake lines and a 46mm socket.

 

[Steve84N]

Sounds good fella, great to see you have 'designed' it as much as it can be.

 

[Machine monkey]

Gone to every length I can to ensure they are safe.

My car is up on the lift monthly for checks. Or changing modding things. So I shall be keeping a very close eye on these.

 

[Machine monkey]

So they go on i have not finished the job for 2 reasons. I dont have a 46mm socket to remove the hub. So i cant swap the disc guards. And i dont have the braided lines yet. Annoyingly i cant work on the car much this weekend either :thumbsdown: But next time i am at the workshop i hope to finish this.

Anyway you like pictures. The discs still look small in the wheels. But i am sure they will work better.

 

[Machine monkey]

So although the brakes are not finally installed. And they may not get done this weekend either :thumbsdown: Social plans with Mrs Monkey Saturday and then we are attempting to chop 2 gearboxes and make one Sunday

This has not stopped me thinking forward and asking Guidok for lots and lots of help. He has been a real help with my oil cooler plans supplying me with information and advice. I have formulated a plan and will up date more on that as it progresses. In the mean time i made the brackets to hold my oil cooler yesterday lunch time. It the rest comes out as well as these i will be happy Now do i clear or blue anodize them?



They are not heavy but i still might remove some material so they are a bit lighter.

 

[Darkangelv2]

I really like them in that contrasting metal - I'd keep them clear.

 

[Worcester_spoon]

+1 for clear

 

[Machine monkey]

I get what your saying and i may agree.

 

[markplant]

Love what you can just knock up during lunch, top work mat

 

[MrPT]

Definitely clear anodise them.