M market watch
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tomscott said:
Exactly my thoughts on dealers, as soon as you start looking in detail, as Tom did, they often just switch off, you are too much trouble, and sooner or later someone will buy the car and not realise what needs doing. If you get the lads on the forecourt, often they don't even know basic facts about the car. It may be different with the specialists however.
If a car fails to sell on the forum, is that not a reflection of the fact that most of us on here, already have one?
Overall we are not very good at talking the value up of these. Its only a matter of time though in my opinion, M3's are creeping up, and they are not as rare as the Z4m's. We just need Harry Metcalfe to buy one.
Justino said:
I have one in my garage & still don't get the " let's talk the values up " mentality :?
Nothing we write or do on this forum will manipulate wider market values & neither will dealers putting £14k cars up at £20k make them be suddenly worth that money
Only buyers dictate a cars value & with so many examples still unsold in a relatively small pool of choice its fair to say that a majority are fair to middling examples at over ripe ask prices
mr wilks said:
It makes no odds to me. I've had my 2008 car for 6 years now, with no intention to sell. For me it is psychological, its nice know you own a car thats appreciating in value. I'm pretty sure mines not depreciating any more, which is the first stage, as its got a nice spec, and only 35k miles. The milestone will be when it gets back to what I paid for it.
Roughly the same time I bought this, a pal bought a 996 Turbo for £33k. Its probably worth £45 - £50k ish now.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't buy it as an investment, but it would be nice to see the value reflect what is a low volume M car with an iconic engine, the likes of which wont be seen again.
Justino said:
Which is fine but it seems in 3 years the car has gone from being the poor relation to aggressive dealer inflation which everyone has jumped on the bandwagon even with poor examples. As previously said 90% of the cars currently for sale have been for sale for months if not a few more than a year and all have inconsistencies. I know that because I've been watching and have been in touch wanting to get back into one but if I were a first time buyer without much knowledge the current market is a minefield.
I'm also watching the market and the ones for sale at present in the trade look crap tbh and overpriced. They've all jumped on the bandwagon trying to punt high miles average cars on at collectors prices.
If a genuine enthusiast car comes up with all the right history I have cash waiting but I won't buy from a dealer with a 3-5k premium for the sake of it.
It's similar in the Porsche 993 market. I'm selling an immaculate low mileage 993 in the next couple of weeks but the dealers trying to punt on average cars at high prices are sat on them and even increasing prices in the hope a mug walks by.
If a genuine enthusiast car comes up with all the right history I have cash waiting but I won't buy from a dealer with a 3-5k premium for the sake of it.
It's similar in the Porsche 993 market. I'm selling an immaculate low mileage 993 in the next couple of weeks but the dealers trying to punt on average cars at high prices are sat on them and even increasing prices in the hope a mug walks by.
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Anonymous
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Tom, this may be a little blunt, but I refer to my previous point about you selling and clearly regretting it.
Every post I read from you in this thread appears to be scathing of current pricing - no one seems more negative about current stock quality than you. I understand you're trying to buy again, but you simply cannot buy what you sold/bought X number of years ago. The same car will have more miles and possibly a higher price tag, likely in need of a large service, or high cost parts such as brakes. Possibly even some paint.
The sooner you realise this hard fact, the sooner you'll either buy another, expecting to deal with what that car requires (money for or post purchase), or move on to another marque and chalk up a great few years in your car history.
Just to level this, I've mentioned before your grey coupe with orange calipers is the one I screen grabbed on my phone while in Le Mans and sealed my decision to go Z4M over 3.4 Boxster, so I have nothing but appreciation for your car history. But sometimes one needs to swallow the pill, however bitter, and look for the next piece of cake to sweeten the taste.
Every post I read from you in this thread appears to be scathing of current pricing - no one seems more negative about current stock quality than you. I understand you're trying to buy again, but you simply cannot buy what you sold/bought X number of years ago. The same car will have more miles and possibly a higher price tag, likely in need of a large service, or high cost parts such as brakes. Possibly even some paint.
The sooner you realise this hard fact, the sooner you'll either buy another, expecting to deal with what that car requires (money for or post purchase), or move on to another marque and chalk up a great few years in your car history.
Just to level this, I've mentioned before your grey coupe with orange calipers is the one I screen grabbed on my phone while in Le Mans and sealed my decision to go Z4M over 3.4 Boxster, so I have nothing but appreciation for your car history. But sometimes one needs to swallow the pill, however bitter, and look for the next piece of cake to sweeten the taste.
tomscott said:
I do and don't really regret selling it. I went traveling for a year with the money I made from it and have had some incredible experiences. I just want something that has been maintained correctly. I wont lie I am negative about the market because most are poor examples apart from one ive seen at Munich legends, ive been looking for the best part of a year not just at Z4Ms but many others as posted above. I just find it shocking how poorly dealers prep cars and think its ok to charge over the odds and there not be any haggling room.
Its not just for me but the newer members who have been contributing to the thread and I have been replying to. Ive done the leg work and spoke to dealers about most of the cars for sale.
I don't want new members getting burned by expensive poorly maintained cars with crap history if they maybe don't know the ins and outs and help where I can which is the whole point of the thread. The fact no new cars are appearing is the reason for the same replies.
Its not just for me but the newer members who have been contributing to the thread and I have been replying to. Ive done the leg work and spoke to dealers about most of the cars for sale.
I don't want new members getting burned by expensive poorly maintained cars with crap history if they maybe don't know the ins and outs and help where I can which is the whole point of the thread. The fact no new cars are appearing is the reason for the same replies.
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tomscott said:
The above are perfectly fair points, chap - glad you took my comments as they were meant
tomscott said:
I completely agree with this statement, I would be in the market for an M Roadster or Coupe if I could find one worth buying, I don't underestimate the repair costs or commitment required to own a ten year old performance car as I've owned several different marques in the past. It isn't that I can't afford to pay £20K on a weekend toy, it's purely that I can't find one that justifies the asking price..............most are poor examples with poor history in average condition with stupid price tags..............
Only a stupid or ill informed novice would buy most of the current available stock at the advertised price.
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Tyreman said:
Or someone not on this forum? I fear the forum part has a massive impact on users' opinions. You suggest you know what something is worth... I'd counter that you know what existing owners have paid and would pay. If you are a new person to the market, you'd work out what you can afford, having come to the conclusion you want a Z4M and you'd buy the best available for your budget.
A lot of people do not join forums when they buy a car. Some join if a problem arises, some never know the vast amount of info that might be out there. If/when my father replaces his R8, I highly doubt he will join an Eagle E Type forum!
JAD said:
I don't think it was specifically meant about what its worth. I don't think any are particularly over priced and most of my comments aren't due to the cars being over priced. Considering the market its more if a car has the credentials to meet that expectation and price. More the fact most for sale do not simply on service history and still command the same prices.
Look at the boxster market. The prices for similar mileage cars vary hugely! an 05 plate car with 50k can be 12k or 18k and there is a reason for it and generally its because of its history rather than spec.
If a car is priced at £18k and has 60k on it and has missed its first service by 500-1000 miles or its service 1 or 2 has been done at non BMW or BMW specialists maybe a small side garage, a missed oil service maybe 3-4 years? or if the car has budget tyres no paper work etc would it not set alarm bells ringing? If budget tyres are on then what other budget items have been used? Standard unleaded, maybe not but its does make you wonder of course you will never know but all you can do it evaluate from what you can see.
Of course you have to expect some non BMW stuff like minor services like oil, plugs and filters I think its fine that any garage can do that but how many garages will check the valve clearances on an inspection? Many major services for cars requires everything being done but of course these engines are robust as long as they are cared for correctly. But even an oil service the engines are so sensitive to the slightest viscosity and can run lumpy.
Apart from the tyres which are easily replaced, all of the above can affect the way the car behaves in your ownership. These cars are cheap to maintain and relatively bulletproof when serviced correctly but if and when something rears its head its not cheap at all. A missed service or old oil circulating or lumpy running from clearances that aren't to spec will only cause more issues down the road and possibly has already caused damage that will just get worse the more miles are added. If the car was 3 years old and had 30k it may not be as much of an issue. With nearly all having 3+ owners how would you know. At least a car that has been serviced to its correct interval you can be fairly confident in and age related issue can be sorted. You have to start with a good car? The fact is these warranty wise warranties they send out with the car where youll pay £1500 to have 3 years mean very little and if you do have an issue it wont be covered.
Maybe I'm just anal and ask too much for 10 year old cars. But imo a well serviced car shows a well looked after car that is worth paying the premium. If the car doesn't then its not and there are non on the market now with the standard service intervals being met which to me is shocking.
Very closely linked to the 'what is mint' thread.
The problem is, in this thread - those saying 'i wont buy this at this price' - fine, but others are.
If you think £20k is a premium price, but it has issues that stop you buying it - then really the issue here is that you're expecting a high end car for £20k (im using this as an example figure here). If these cars are selling at these prices, then the only thing wrong with the market is your perception of what you should be getting for that money.
At the end of the day - it's a thin book, there arent many available - so you cant really pick and choose and say 'this pricing is rediculous' or use the word 'sensible' to describe the price you'd LIKE to pay, but cars are actually listed for more than.
The problem is, in this thread - those saying 'i wont buy this at this price' - fine, but others are.
If you think £20k is a premium price, but it has issues that stop you buying it - then really the issue here is that you're expecting a high end car for £20k (im using this as an example figure here). If these cars are selling at these prices, then the only thing wrong with the market is your perception of what you should be getting for that money.
At the end of the day - it's a thin book, there arent many available - so you cant really pick and choose and say 'this pricing is rediculous' or use the word 'sensible' to describe the price you'd LIKE to pay, but cars are actually listed for more than.
jimmybell said:
Bang on. Frankly I think paying £70k for an E Type; one of the best selling sports cars ever (how many tens of thousands sold?), is batshit but that's the current market. Live with it or don't buy a car.
The Z4M wasn't a hugely expensive car new, and is modern and reliable so there are likely to be many many more that have marginal histories than excellent ones.
I think people are making too big a deal about ancient history here too. Provided there's a running-in service from BMW then the rest shouldn't be a deal breaker - especially if recent services have been up to scratch. I'd take a car with generic garage services but a recent big service at Munich Legends or Reddish over one with a full BMW history.