London attack
- Thread starter Woots
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There's a religion, and a minority group interpret it with hatred and violence, and the other group interprets it with peace and love.
Both interpretations are equally as valid. They are both based on myths and legends from very very old books. They both have foundations of a total lack of logic, a total lack of reason, contradiction and hypocrisy.
So how do we know that one is wrong, and one is right? We know this from our own moral values which are independent of religion.
We don't need religion for morality. Religion is a platform that is dangerous because it's texts are out of date and entirely unmovable and as society progresses the texts become more and more out of date and create more friction with mainstream society. It's a dangerous mix when combined with the fact it's so easy for people to interpret the religion in such wildly different ways.
Religion can dangerous and people are good and do good without it.
Both interpretations are equally as valid. They are both based on myths and legends from very very old books. They both have foundations of a total lack of logic, a total lack of reason, contradiction and hypocrisy.
So how do we know that one is wrong, and one is right? We know this from our own moral values which are independent of religion.
We don't need religion for morality. Religion is a platform that is dangerous because it's texts are out of date and entirely unmovable and as society progresses the texts become more and more out of date and create more friction with mainstream society. It's a dangerous mix when combined with the fact it's so easy for people to interpret the religion in such wildly different ways.
Religion can dangerous and people are good and do good without it.
Lightning87
Member
Nondizzyblonde said:
probably becasue chrisitanity is based on respect even for other believes. the bible says that if youre hit in the ceek, turn the other end thowarts the man who did it. and even tho the christians did also stupid things, we've got enlightment that god don't want us to kill and judge, of course you have weirdo's in every community, but there ain't that much as in islam.
you're PM said it has nothing to do with isalm, it does, it has nothing to do with all muslims.
muhammed was a pedoseksual who married a 9 year old. he copied a large part of the bible/thora, give his own twist to it, and voila there is the islam believe.
problem is, the koran is taken to seriously by certain people and regime's you english girls want to live in Saoudi or iran ? i don't thinks so, those guys missed everything what happend on woman's rights, democratcy, and al those other liberal stuff. and you see change after the arab revolt ??? i see only bad change, in tunesia and egypt the state is nog longer secular. and libia is maybe the new afghanistan.
also it's illegal to leave islam, in iran you can get the death penalty for it, have you ever seen a christian who leave's his belief seen slaughtert by the rest of his chruch ? id didn't
I saw the horrendous pictures on the news last night whilst working away and was gobsmacked, I've read with interest the views expressed on here, I don't think that I'm articulate enough to contribute but save to say we can't tar all people with the same brush, the authorities and Muslim community must know the who the extremists are, they are the ones who need dealing with, my heart goes out to that soldiers family and friends.
Lightning87, there are so many inaccuracies in what you have written I don't even know where to start.
1. The New Testament says turn the other cheek, the Old Testament God is exceedingly blood thirsty and suggests "an eye for an eye".
2. Depends which branch of Christianity you are looking at, I don't see the American evangelists, for instance, preaching tolerance for all others. If you want a religion with tolerance I suspect the Buddhists are about the only ones to offer that.
3. Regarding enlightenment - really ? I direct you at extremists such as Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombing, partly in revenge of the Waco siege. Enlightenment if it came about at all, also came about after centuries of trying to convert the rest of the world to christianity, e.g. the crusades, the conquistadors.
I am not arguing for one religion being better or worse than another here, just pointing out to you that your black and white view of the world is somewhat inaccurate.
The Koran may well be skewed as you describe, but then The Bible is not exactly untouched by people with agendas either. For instance, it was condensed down to 66 chapters/parts ( whatever you want to call them ) in the 3rd century CE by the "council of Nicea", at which point incidentally, most of the women involved in the story got written out of history. Incidentally, the Bible, Thora and the Koran share a common ancestor, as Christiantiy, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions.
I agree that women's rights are appalling in a lot of Muslim countries, but this is mainly due to culture not religion, and let's not forget that in Britain women got locked up until the 1950's in lunatic asylums for having children out of wedlock, and didn't get the vote until relatively recently. Let's not confuse religion with culture and politics.
The same applies to the "slaughter" of those wanting to leave the religion, very much culture again, not religion. Just like the pouring of acid on women that have dishonoured the family. A different debate again !
So in summary, I think everyone has the right to an opinion, and there has been a lot of interesting and stimulating debate on this thread. However, in order to have a reasoned debate, you actually need to get your information and facts right in the first place.
Rant over.
1. The New Testament says turn the other cheek, the Old Testament God is exceedingly blood thirsty and suggests "an eye for an eye".
2. Depends which branch of Christianity you are looking at, I don't see the American evangelists, for instance, preaching tolerance for all others. If you want a religion with tolerance I suspect the Buddhists are about the only ones to offer that.
3. Regarding enlightenment - really ? I direct you at extremists such as Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombing, partly in revenge of the Waco siege. Enlightenment if it came about at all, also came about after centuries of trying to convert the rest of the world to christianity, e.g. the crusades, the conquistadors.
I am not arguing for one religion being better or worse than another here, just pointing out to you that your black and white view of the world is somewhat inaccurate.
The Koran may well be skewed as you describe, but then The Bible is not exactly untouched by people with agendas either. For instance, it was condensed down to 66 chapters/parts ( whatever you want to call them ) in the 3rd century CE by the "council of Nicea", at which point incidentally, most of the women involved in the story got written out of history. Incidentally, the Bible, Thora and the Koran share a common ancestor, as Christiantiy, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions.
I agree that women's rights are appalling in a lot of Muslim countries, but this is mainly due to culture not religion, and let's not forget that in Britain women got locked up until the 1950's in lunatic asylums for having children out of wedlock, and didn't get the vote until relatively recently. Let's not confuse religion with culture and politics.
The same applies to the "slaughter" of those wanting to leave the religion, very much culture again, not religion. Just like the pouring of acid on women that have dishonoured the family. A different debate again !
So in summary, I think everyone has the right to an opinion, and there has been a lot of interesting and stimulating debate on this thread. However, in order to have a reasoned debate, you actually need to get your information and facts right in the first place.
Rant over.
NonDB
just to keep our facts in focus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
(hadiths are where the interpretations are defined and underlie most of the sunni V shia violence (of which there is a great deal more than ever reported here in the UK))
just to keep our facts in focus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
(hadiths are where the interpretations are defined and underlie most of the sunni V shia violence (of which there is a great deal more than ever reported here in the UK))
Thank you Finisterre - I stand corrected, but can't go back to edit my post as that would not be right ! Sometimes you have to admit your ignorance.
Nondizzyblonde said:
The generally accepted wisdom is that since Buddha is not a deity, then Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion.
To pick up on a point made by others here about trouble makers and terrorists being sheltered within the muslim community.
I would like to see the general population in Afghanistan do more to help the occupying troops. They should be pointing out who the Taliban are, and where they are hiding, instead of sitting on their asses drinking coffee and smoking hash while our troops get blown up with roadside bombs.
MalcMac said:
That's easy to say from the safety of the UK. If I lived in Afghanistaan and had a family, I'd have to think very seriously about outing any Taliban as it could result in me and my entire family being hacked to death.
Even if you out a Taliban, they are just people living in homes. It might not always be easy to prove their guilt.
Further to that, our troops are being blown up by roadside bombs but their families and friends are also being blown up by western bombs. Look at the hatred the Boston bombings generated. That's pretty much the same level of hatred generated from every bomb that missed it's target out there. I don't think I'd be inclined to risk my life to turn in Taliban if someone I knew was hit with an airstrike.
Everyone complains about the cowardice of Taliban using IED's. By the same measure shooting Taliban armed with rifles from 4.5km away with an Apache helicopter is also a cowardly act.
The resistance fighters in France and Belgium were the minority, most people didn't 'do their bit'.
Your forgetting that there is also a minority in Afghanistan 'doing their bit' as well. As an example, the ANP Police. A pretty grim job, but an organisation with individuals in it who are trying to make Afghanistan a better place to live.
Also, if you watch any documentary about Afghanistan you will note it's not uncommon for villagers and other locals to communicate with the armed forces to let them know about newly planted IED's, locations of Taliban, etc.
Your forgetting that there is also a minority in Afghanistan 'doing their bit' as well. As an example, the ANP Police. A pretty grim job, but an organisation with individuals in it who are trying to make Afghanistan a better place to live.
Also, if you watch any documentary about Afghanistan you will note it's not uncommon for villagers and other locals to communicate with the armed forces to let them know about newly planted IED's, locations of Taliban, etc.
MalcMac said:
Who's generally accepted wisdom ? Apparently there is quite a lot of argument, even within the Buddhist community, regarding whether it is a religion or a philosphy. Here is a summary http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/philosophy.htm
Quakers are pretty amazing. There is even a sect of 'non-theistic friends', ie Quakers that don't believe in a deity. There was a branch in Yorkshire a few decades back that operated safe houses so that IRA members could get away, (the IRA and Islam have identical attitudes to apostasy). I believe the Saudis have a similar program for Islamic extremists. Anyway, Quakers, good people, they put themselves out trying to make the world a better place.
I was raised a Quaker but no longer call myself one as I am an Atheist now. I did meet Quakers who did not believe in deities, but there aren't many of them and I was told it is generally frowned upon. I think being raised as a Quaker gave me a good foundation in life. Most of the ones I've met are very gentle, thoughtful people. Quakers will take the time to try and understand someone's point of view even if they disagree strongly with it and they pretty much will welcome anyone into their meeting houses
Carol M said:
Absolutely terrible
A
Anonymous
Guest
We invade their countries to try and 'inflict' our ways.
I am not surprised when some of their supporters over here also try and inflict theirs in return.
Some cultures have a history of barbaric violence using machetes, even against their neighbours children, and we welcome their race, then we are shocked when it happens here.
Let other countries rule and behave as they want, and keep it away from our doorstep.
Enoch Powell's prediction will happen, it's just a matter of time.
I am not surprised when some of their supporters over here also try and inflict theirs in return.
Some cultures have a history of barbaric violence using machetes, even against their neighbours children, and we welcome their race, then we are shocked when it happens here.
Let other countries rule and behave as they want, and keep it away from our doorstep.
Enoch Powell's prediction will happen, it's just a matter of time.