Is technology making cars worse?
- Thread starter ChrisC85
- Start date
original guvnor said:
OG, In view of our overcrowded roads, I should imagine that may well become the reality. I heard on the radio the other day that if all vehicles in the UK were on the motorways at the same time, they'd be 6 vehicles deep! Traffic density will just get worse.
exdos said:In the days I described in a previous post in this thread, most cars used to rot away within 8 or so years, so obsolesce will always be part of ownership of most vehicles. These days, it's uneconomic repair rather than rust which terminates useful car "life".buzyg said:My concern is that all this tech will make all modern cars, so fitted, uneconomical to repair, in the not so distant future, so get that Zed3 ///M Coupe quick.
You can do something about mechanical problems. You can stop rust, weld panels, turn new mechanical parts.
I have some understanding of the stuff they are putting in modern cars. But there is no way I could recreate any of the parts that make up the dash display in my Zed4. If they break you have to by a new one. If a mechanical part breaks. they are much easier to fabricate and can often be repaired. So the theory goes, the more electronics the more the car becomes threw away.
This is great for your business plan, as you can easily manage the life cycle of the product, like those wonderful caring folk at Microsoft do.
I wonder how many of these heroes have trashed their cars after switching their traction control off thinking they are too good a driver to use them? (obviously not the westfield or cobra though)
I see it every year in the cold icy roads where people drive like loonies until they have a skid, s**t themselves and then slow down.
If they were prepared in the first place by adjusting their speed the skid wouldnt happen.
I see it every year in the cold icy roads where people drive like loonies until they have a skid, s**t themselves and then slow down.
If they were prepared in the first place by adjusting their speed the skid wouldnt happen.
exdos said:
I bet he did......... As it slowly rotated on its roof in the middle of the road..
On a serious note though, something has to be done about the standard of driving in the UK...the worst offenders are young girls in French tinfoil..then school run mums in 4x4's who live 200 yds from the school..
Audi drivers seem to have taken over from BMW drivers as being the most ignorant arseholes on the road in general..
Z4M-2006 said:
Agree.
Lack of using indicators gets to me and for some reason the city I'm currently living in is just rife with it (Plymouth). I nearly got run down a few weeks back on foot. I saw a car coming along a road quite fast. So, I started crossing the side road while keeping my eye on the car just in case, only for them to turn in at a high speed without even indicating and without slowing then got irrate at me.Luckily I had stopped walking before getting into the danger zone but was in disbelief. Sure, you never know what a driver is going to do so should always assume the worst I suppose, but if going to not indicate at the very least be more aware that those around you have no idea where you're going next.
One technology advancement I would like to see - auto indicators working of brain waves with the car knowing where exactly the driver is going next
Some interesting points of view, but I have to side with Exdos here, many drivers imagine they are much better drives than they are in reality, so having driver aids can only be a good thing. Also having them like the zed where even in Sport+ you have some traction control remaining, but with enough flexibility to have some fun.
Having owned a couple of proper 1970's MG's whilst they were really good fun, they were really slow, didn't stop particularly well and cornered interestingly, but they were good fun. Would I want to run something similar as a daily nope and that's the crux of the argument really, by all means buy a sportscar without driver aids as a weekend or track car and then get something safe for the daily. If you can only have one car then you are going to want as many driver aids as you can.
Having owned a couple of proper 1970's MG's whilst they were really good fun, they were really slow, didn't stop particularly well and cornered interestingly, but they were good fun. Would I want to run something similar as a daily nope and that's the crux of the argument really, by all means buy a sportscar without driver aids as a weekend or track car and then get something safe for the daily. If you can only have one car then you are going to want as many driver aids as you can.
Had several Rwd cars as daily drivers in all Scottish weather, few accidents early on but learn from your mistakes. It hugely increases your road awareness in the same way as riding a motorbike, you are looking at the road surface and constantly checking the road ahead. Makes you a much better driver but means you have to be focused even when you are coming home late on a wet night. In 20 years driving I could probably say a decent traction and stability control system would have saved me twice though it also cost me a steering rack when at low speed it braked an inside wheel and cut the wheel spin only to make it side wide and hit a kerb.
First time was coming round a corner on a back road where a farmer had dropped wet mud all over the apex. Car slid wide and understeered into the other lane then slid at the back as the rears hit the mud. Nothing coming the other way thankfully and was able to gather it up using most of the road, would have been a head on collision if there was a car coming the other way. Very low grip means the stability wouldn't have been that effective either through probably would have made the catch much better and taken less road so it might have saved a potential accident. Other one was a high speed blow out where the rear tyre came off the rim and spun the car down the road. A tyre pressure warning might have let me know before the corner that the pressure was being lost (or a run flat) and a stability system might have been able to save it where I was mostly just a passenger, car ended up written off through a telegraph pole at the side of the road. It may have tried to brake the wheel with no tyre and made it worse so hard to tell but the danger of the systems is that people rely on them.
Drive a powerful unassisted car in damp or icy conditions and you immediately know there isn’t much grip and crawl along well inside your limits with senses on full alert. Do the same in a car with all the bells and whistles and you might ignore the ice bong and drive as you the day before. Some don’t flash at you to show you they are actively trimming your line or reducing the throttle but when they reach the limits of physics you will fall off the road at a much higher speed.
Good example, my brother changed from a diesel golf to his first nice car, a 335i hybrid with all the toys. Couple of days later I had a go, first thing I noticed were the rear wheels caked in brake dust showing the stability and traction control had been hammering the rear brakes. Switched everything off and raced had a play up the road with no issue and then tried it with the systems on and could easily drive without activating them so gave him some lessons on being smooth with his throttle application instead of stamping on it and feeding in the power at the exit of corners. Feeling the stability or traction control coming on is a sign you’ve done something wrong or that you missed something on the road surface so you should work out why it happened and correct your driving IMO. Always things to improve and a less sophisticated car highlights your errors a lot more, can also hide issues like broken springs that you might live with without noticing.
First time was coming round a corner on a back road where a farmer had dropped wet mud all over the apex. Car slid wide and understeered into the other lane then slid at the back as the rears hit the mud. Nothing coming the other way thankfully and was able to gather it up using most of the road, would have been a head on collision if there was a car coming the other way. Very low grip means the stability wouldn't have been that effective either through probably would have made the catch much better and taken less road so it might have saved a potential accident. Other one was a high speed blow out where the rear tyre came off the rim and spun the car down the road. A tyre pressure warning might have let me know before the corner that the pressure was being lost (or a run flat) and a stability system might have been able to save it where I was mostly just a passenger, car ended up written off through a telegraph pole at the side of the road. It may have tried to brake the wheel with no tyre and made it worse so hard to tell but the danger of the systems is that people rely on them.
Drive a powerful unassisted car in damp or icy conditions and you immediately know there isn’t much grip and crawl along well inside your limits with senses on full alert. Do the same in a car with all the bells and whistles and you might ignore the ice bong and drive as you the day before. Some don’t flash at you to show you they are actively trimming your line or reducing the throttle but when they reach the limits of physics you will fall off the road at a much higher speed.
Good example, my brother changed from a diesel golf to his first nice car, a 335i hybrid with all the toys. Couple of days later I had a go, first thing I noticed were the rear wheels caked in brake dust showing the stability and traction control had been hammering the rear brakes. Switched everything off and raced had a play up the road with no issue and then tried it with the systems on and could easily drive without activating them so gave him some lessons on being smooth with his throttle application instead of stamping on it and feeding in the power at the exit of corners. Feeling the stability or traction control coming on is a sign you’ve done something wrong or that you missed something on the road surface so you should work out why it happened and correct your driving IMO. Always things to improve and a less sophisticated car highlights your errors a lot more, can also hide issues like broken springs that you might live with without noticing.
Crusoe said:
That's from the cruise control on new BMW's causing that, my F11 is the same. The system uses the rear brakes to slow the car down and maintain speed.
I'm also from NE Scotland, so you can imagine the wintry conditions we get here! The Z4M is my first toy with traction control and I've never had problems and the others have all been RWD. It's simple, learn to drive to the conditions and respect them. TC etc just makes drivers complacent.....
And that is the crux...
People become complacent because they have done 70 mph and not crashed..... They might have done without all the driving aids..
People need to learn to drive to there ability level,not constantly rely on a daily basis for the gadgets to stop them from crashing..
Cars will go faster now without crashing,and that may sound like a good thing..But its at the expense of the skill level of drivers dropping dramatically..
And thats not a good thing.. :thumbsdown:
People become complacent because they have done 70 mph and not crashed..... They might have done without all the driving aids..
People need to learn to drive to there ability level,not constantly rely on a daily basis for the gadgets to stop them from crashing..
Cars will go faster now without crashing,and that may sound like a good thing..But its at the expense of the skill level of drivers dropping dramatically..
And thats not a good thing.. :thumbsdown:
Late to the party but here is my 2cents (sorry for the broken english, not my native language).
Its a really interesting subject however 'technology' and 'cars' are very broad definitions.
Technology that gives advantages without serious drawbacks, sure why not have it!
Think; better rust prevention, lighter stronger materials, tyre innovations, increased reliability, increased power/torque, increased convience (rain sensor, automatic lights) etc etc.
Technology which gives certain advantages but also have important drawbacks, hmm depends, I would probably opt out if I could :|
Think; big crash structures (every day drag few 100kgs extra for a bit more safety that you probably never need), airco (lots of extra components, weight, powerloss and fuel consumption for a bit of cold air), ABS, automatic gearbox, super light power steering, cruise ctrl, hill assist etc
Technology that gives tiny advantages (IMHO) with significant drawbacks, no please :thumbsdown:
Think: electric adjustable seats (again lots of weight and complexity for what again?), electric boot lid (are you kidding me?!), launch control (I have no words...), fully automatic parking (wut?)
About cars, what the purpose of the vehikel in question?
Family SUV driven by facebooking moms, sure cram it with all the safety tech we can think of, they will need it!
But lets focus on sports cars, why do they exist? Give driving pleasure/statisfaction, look nice, show off, offer excitement etc.
All of these thinks are very subjective ofcourse, therefor such wide variety exists.
I don't understand why you would go for an automatic if driving is your thing. Using the clutch and stick is such an important part of the experience, heel-toe, rev-matching etc, is soo much fun and getting that right is sooo statisfying
I would also for example sacrifice light steering if meant better feel, like sacrificing some ride comfort for better more accurate handling.
And then driving aids on a sportscar, big part of the satisfaction is mastering the machine, so it should be possible to switch them off.
Some driver aids are nice but it makes me think, where is the limit;
Imagin BMW offering an option called 'Perfect Apex Guidance', you steer vaguely in the direction of the corner, the car takes over and clips the apex in the best possible way using traction control to maximize power while accelarating out of the corner. Would you take it?
Its a really interesting subject however 'technology' and 'cars' are very broad definitions.
Technology that gives advantages without serious drawbacks, sure why not have it!
Think; better rust prevention, lighter stronger materials, tyre innovations, increased reliability, increased power/torque, increased convience (rain sensor, automatic lights) etc etc.
Technology which gives certain advantages but also have important drawbacks, hmm depends, I would probably opt out if I could :|
Think; big crash structures (every day drag few 100kgs extra for a bit more safety that you probably never need), airco (lots of extra components, weight, powerloss and fuel consumption for a bit of cold air), ABS, automatic gearbox, super light power steering, cruise ctrl, hill assist etc
Technology that gives tiny advantages (IMHO) with significant drawbacks, no please :thumbsdown:
Think: electric adjustable seats (again lots of weight and complexity for what again?), electric boot lid (are you kidding me?!), launch control (I have no words...), fully automatic parking (wut?)
About cars, what the purpose of the vehikel in question?
Family SUV driven by facebooking moms, sure cram it with all the safety tech we can think of, they will need it!
But lets focus on sports cars, why do they exist? Give driving pleasure/statisfaction, look nice, show off, offer excitement etc.
All of these thinks are very subjective ofcourse, therefor such wide variety exists.
I don't understand why you would go for an automatic if driving is your thing. Using the clutch and stick is such an important part of the experience, heel-toe, rev-matching etc, is soo much fun and getting that right is sooo statisfying
I would also for example sacrifice light steering if meant better feel, like sacrificing some ride comfort for better more accurate handling.
And then driving aids on a sportscar, big part of the satisfaction is mastering the machine, so it should be possible to switch them off.
Some driver aids are nice but it makes me think, where is the limit;
Imagin BMW offering an option called 'Perfect Apex Guidance', you steer vaguely in the direction of the corner, the car takes over and clips the apex in the best possible way using traction control to maximize power while accelarating out of the corner. Would you take it?