Is technology making cars worse?

When I started driving virtually all cars were RWD with no driver aids. Heaters and radios were optional extras; they were fitted with cross-ply tyres and they didn't have seat belts. Sports cars of that era also accelerated to 60mph in around 14 secs (i.e. MGB GT) with a top speed of 104mph and fuel consumption of around 24mpg and required servicing every 3k miles. Is that what everyone who dislikes modern technology calls "raw" and is that what they really want? I don't think so!

Today, even the little runabouts perform and handle better than sports cars from the 1960s. The quicker that cars accelerate and the faster their top speeds, the more technology is required to produce that performance and the more technology required to make them drivable for 99% of the punters who buy them. For me, the biggest change in motoring in my time has been tyre technology: cars of today simply wouldn't exist if we still only had cross-plys. Technology is great: the problem is there are simply far too many cars on our roads which neuters performance cars down to the lowest common denominator of the little runabout being driven by an old woman doing her shopping.
 
if you want a raw car the m is the one to have such a fantastic car power delivery out of this world .I have moved on now want a bit more comfort and ease of moving the car along so gone for z4 35is dct m sport cant wait to give it some :thumbsup:
 
ChrisC85 said:
Soon it will be about meeting co2 emissions standards and stuff, so maybe that will have effect on the feel and drivability of a car also.


I think that time arrived about 10 years ago Chris.
 
LeeZ4MR said:
I think its personal preference and I loved my TVR mostly because YOU had to drive it and nothing else was looking after you but I agree with PVR regards ABS and I wouldn't have minded if it had that, I was happy enough it didn't have airbags/traction control/flappy paddles...although if I had hit a tree in it I would be wishing for airbags!

When I had my Z4M I mostly switched the traction off because for me if its bone dry and it loses traction it then holds the power back which felt a little alien to me after the TVR but don't get me wrong traction control can be a great help if its soaking wet on the roads.

One thing I will never love is two pedals/paddles because they just do absolutely nothing for me so in that regard the past is far better than the modern day :driving:

Pretty much bang on there Lee. Coming from another TVR driver. I got my Griffith out for the first time in months last weekend and the way it drove, no PAS, TC, Sc was just so involving.

I'm a big believer in safety aids, but what happens when people begin to rely on them as part of daily driving?

I think back to the video the lad posted on YouTube where he was hammering round roads with his girlfriend screaming to slow down in his Z4. The TC light was going fast enough to give an epileptic a fit. If the TC had given up he would have been through a hedge or worse.
 
All the same points and arguments here are happening with bikes as well.
ABS, Traction Control, Fly by wire, Anti Wheelie, Linked Brakes, Adaptive Suspension and lower gears being restricted through the ECU.
Although some are good ideas I feel people are relying more on technology and therefor not as good drivers/riders as they would be without the driving aids.
All the technology has sure spoiled MotoGP, although there is still a lot of skill involved there is nowhere near the amount of rider input.
Out of a corner smack the throttle back and the bikes computer works out how much power to give the rear wheel rather than the riders cheeks.
 
The worst "advance" was the introduction of the Cat, going from a non Cat Golf to one with a Cat was horrendous, it had squeezed the life out of it and felt extremely sluggish. Not to mention the stench it produced …

Took a while for that to be sorted again.

OG - you mention 991 steering as a negative, coming from the M to the 991 I must say that i do not feel any difference though what so ever. Perhaps a purist 997 can detect something, but I certainly did not.
 
I like power steering,electric windows and a good heater.An LSD,manual gearbox and RWD,electronic ignition...

ABS and traction control wouldnt bother me if i didnt have them..

Fuel injection works well,but i love the feel and sound of a set of sidedraught carbs..

I dunno,there is argument for and against any gadget on the car.... But with the introduction of all the driver safety aids,its took away driving as a "Skill"..

Anyone can get in a new performance car and drive quickly with zero talent... That shouldnt happen,its just not safe..
 
pvr I perhaps shouldn't have singled out the 991 because the same criticism has been applied to many cars. I think in the Porsche though the hydraulic steering in the 997 and pre-981 Boxster/Cayman was so good that electric PAS just stood out as a real backwards step in terms of driver feel and involvement. You'll have to agree though surely that the M steering is leagues ahead of non-M E85/6's and E89's?
 
Nictrix said:
All the same points and arguments here are happening with bikes as well.
ABS, Traction Control, Fly by wire, Anti Wheelie, Linked Brakes, Adaptive Suspension and lower gears being restricted through the ECU.
Although some are good ideas I feel people are relying more on technology and therefor not as good drivers/riders as they would be without the driving aids.
Surely the whole point of technological driver aids is to make up for the short-comings of the person behind the wheel on public roads which in turn makes the car safer for everyone (i.e. other motorists and pedestrians) as well as the occupants of the cars? Most motorists drive cars as a means of personal transport whether it be a Fiat or a Ferrari and don't take any pride in the skill of car control.

Nictrix said:
All the technology has sure spoiled MotoGP, although there is still a lot of skill involved there is nowhere near the amount of rider input.
Marquez seems to get more movement out of his bike (sideways and lean) whatever electronic gizmos are on his bike...
 
Rented a 320d auto a couple of weeks ago. A very impressive package, but I can't say that the electric steering felt any better than my Z4. If anything the weighting was a little heavier in its heaviest setting than the Zed (Sport button on), which made it feel even more numb.

One of the problems is surely that electric units are designed to save power vs hydraulic; if you want "feel" you need to actuate every little jiggle and tug that you'd get with the wheel more mechanically coupled to the road and maybe that means more power wasted than saved? Wouldn't be surprised if some of the more praiseworthy recent examples (911 GT3 etc) dont actually save a lot of juice in this area compared to their predecessors.

As for flappy paddles - to drive a modern sports car with a close ratio box very fast, they're essential, surely? Can be fun because of this, i.e. they make insanely high performance more accessible, but three pedals can be great fun even in a modestly fast car. Heel & toe-ing has got to be one of the most rewarding things about driving when you nail it. Every roundabout approach suddenly becomes a joy!



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ChrisC85 said:
thepits said:
If you want a raw daily drive try a E30 M3 - I did :thumbsup: :driving:
Aids? LSD, ABS, errr - that's it :)
Was it scary to drive? No, just a bit 'interesting' on black ice :o
Was it fun to drive> YES! a pure drivers car. :oops:
E30 M3 is what I always wanted. I will one day get one for the exact reason that I really do enjoy the pure drivers car.
So, the answer to the thread "Is technology making cars worse?" would appear to be........

YES. :driving:

perhaps this should be turned into a poll? :poke:
 
exdos said:
Nictrix said:
All the same points and arguments here are happening with bikes as well.
ABS, Traction Control, Fly by wire, Anti Wheelie, Linked Brakes, Adaptive Suspension and lower gears being restricted through the ECU.
Although some are good ideas I feel people are relying more on technology and therefor not as good drivers/riders as they would be without the driving aids.
Surely the whole point of technological driver aids is to make up for the short-comings of the person behind the wheel on public roads which in turn makes the car safer for everyone (i.e. other motorists and pedestrians) as well as the occupants of the cars? Most motorists drive cars as a means of personal transport whether it be a Fiat or a Ferrari and don't take any pride in the skill of car control.

Nictrix said:
All the technology has sure spoiled MotoGP, although there is still a lot of skill involved there is nowhere near the amount of rider input.
Marquez seems to get more movement out of his bike (sideways and lean) whatever electronic gizmos are on his bike...
Yep they make up for peoples lack of skill or common sense but what if they get too used to them and they fail.
As with all tech on cars and bikes they can be tuned to suit each person.
I reckon Marquez maybe just has his traction control set to let him slide the bike around a bit more than others.
 
Last year I saw a Westfield that had gone down the embankment on the slip road onto a dual carriageway in summer when it was damp. I saw an AC Cobra replica which had left the road just after traffic lights in a built up area when it was damp. A friend rolled his supercharged Mustang a few weeks ago, in the damp. I'm sure all their owners choosing such cars thought they were above average drivers, and they may well be, but I bet they all wish they'd had some form of traction control after they'd binned their cars.
 
exdos said:
Last year I saw a Westfield that had gone down the embankment on the slip road onto a dual carriageway in summer when it was damp. I saw an AC Cobra replica which had left the road just after traffic lights in a built up area when it was damp. A friend rolled his supercharged Mustang a few weeks ago, in the damp. I'm sure all their owners choosing such cars thought they were above average drivers, and they may well be, but I bet they all wish they'd had some form of traction control after they'd binned their cars.

It needs some context here, how can you know that technology would have prevented these crashes? I'm not saying your wrong, just that your can't be sure your right. :?

It is handy to have the option to switch safety driving aids on or off. I have my TC on when it's icey/wet and along with the ABS, it may well have prevented me meeting a granite wall, a couple of weekends ago, but I don't know that it did.

My concern is that all this tech will make all modern cars, so fitted, uneconomical to repair, in the not so distant future, so get that Zed3 ///M Coupe quick.
:thumbsup:
 
exdos said:
Last year I saw a Westfield that had gone down the embankment on the slip road onto a dual carriageway in summer when it was damp. I saw an AC Cobra replica which had left the road just after traffic lights in a built up area when it was damp. A friend rolled his supercharged Mustang a few weeks ago, in the damp. I'm sure all their owners choosing such cars thought they were above average drivers, and they may well be, but I bet they all wish they'd had some form of traction control after they'd binned their cars.


John,

You know yourself that all these cars could be driven very very safely in any conditions..You have to "want" to light the tyres up or get it sideways,even in the damp.

All 3 have been caught out,either by lack of talent or not knowing there car well enough to know whats going to happen if they try and be heroic..

I dare say all where trying to show off and got it wrong...
 
thepits said:
ChrisC85 said:
thepits said:
If you want a raw daily drive try a E30 M3 - I did :thumbsup: :driving:
Aids? LSD, ABS, errr - that's it :)
Was it scary to drive? No, just a bit 'interesting' on black ice :o
Was it fun to drive> YES! a pure drivers car. :oops:
E30 M3 is what I always wanted. I will one day get one for the exact reason that I really do enjoy the pure drivers car.
So, the answer to the thread "Is technology making cars worse?" would appear to be........

YES. :driving:

perhaps this should be turned into a poll? :poke:

Yes you're right i should have tbh.
 
Technology makes things better, saves people time, makes things easier.
I don't think technology is making cars worse but less fun or less involving, yes.
Vanos has it's benefits :)
ABS even on track avoids flat spots and improves lap times.
LSD is a necessity for some
I have yet to try a flappy paddly car but can see some benefits such as keeping both hands on the wheel. Super quick changes means a more stable car/in control car on the road and race track and faster times. Shame the cars sound dull though.
Technology in cars is savings lives.
Technology means today you can have a 340bhp naturally aspirated petrol engined car and 30+MPG.
 
exdos said:
Surely the whole point of technological driver aids is to make up for the short-comings of the person behind the wheel on public roads which in turn makes the car safer for everyone (i.e. other motorists and pedestrians) as well as the occupants of the cars? Most motorists drive cars as a means of personal transport whether it be a Fiat or a Ferrari and don't take any pride in the skill of car control.

Exdos - Taking that to the extreme we will presumably all therefore embrace the Google driverless car or its successor(s) because we will never crash? Who was it who said recently that AI will be the death of the human race? Was it Stephen Hawking?
 
buzyg said:
It needs some context here, how can you know that technology would have prevented these crashes? I'm not saying your wrong, just that your can't be sure your right. :?
In all 3 cases I gave, the cars have a high power to weight ratio and probably didn't have any electronic driver aids and no other vehicles were involved. If such vehicles lose traction on a damp surface, their driven wheels (rear in all 3 examples) will spin up and the car will probably start to rotate until the driver removes his foot from the throttle by which time the car will be well out of control. In comparison, the DSC of a Z4M would operate in milliseconds, cutting the throttle and applying the brakes on individual wheels thus preventing the unstable condition developing at the earliest opportunity and certainly quicker than any human could do. I'm sure I'm right that an electronic traction/stability system would operate faster than any driver and that it can apply the brakes to individual wheels when the driver can't.

buzyg said:
My concern is that all this tech will make all modern cars, so fitted, uneconomical to repair, in the not so distant future, so get that Zed3 ///M Coupe quick.
:thumbsup:
In the days I described in a previous post in this thread, most cars used to rot away within 8 or so years, so obsolesce will always be part of ownership of most vehicles. These days, it's uneconomic repair rather than rust which terminates useful car "life".
 
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