How many times have you felt like...

[Havard]

Well, I have learned something there. After 400K miles of rep driving aned a former Police office, I thought the Merc was in the wrong or at least ignorant. Interesting though as the Highway Code is not always right about "real world" driving and understand human behaviour in certain situations.

If I was sat in that queue, especially after observing the signs and getting over, I would have been miffed that someone had cut in at the last minute. I am in the camp that earlier selection of lane and smooth entrance to a single lane is better than a double, shorter, queue and people then cutting in.

I still wouldn't have done what the Renault driver did as it is taking the law into your own hands (in their opinion) and also could have ended up a lot worse for all if the situation had escalated.

H.

 

[Russ59]

If I was sat in that queue, especially after observing the signs and getting over, I would have been miffed that someone had cut in at the last minute. I am in the camp that earlier selection of lane and smooth entrance to a single lane is better than a double, shorter, queue and people then cutting in.



H.

+1

Now we'll see if you get called a T**T by a certain member.
The reason I deleted my post.

 

[Jaw]

getting over early is your choice though - in theory, a single lane with everyone getting in early just means a longer, slower queue as people constantly stop sporadically to let others in. There is no flow and it becomes stop start. A double queue where people let each other in in turn would be no more efficient, as it gives a pace; a flow. No stop start, one after the other moving slowly. In theory. In reality, people don't want to let people go in an orderly fashion which is part of the problem. The Merc driver wouldn't have been cutting in last minute if people weren't leaving the whole lane empty, but then people wouldn't have left the whole lane empty if they didn't feel like they weren't going to get let in at the end (which in fairness, they wouldn't have).

The highway Code isn't always right about real world driving. Yet we still have to follow the speed limit on an empty motorway at 2am.

 

[Havard]

If I was sat in that queue, especially after observing the signs and getting over, I would have been miffed that someone had cut in at the last minute. I am in the camp that earlier selection of lane and smooth entrance to a single lane is better than a double, shorter, queue and people then cutting in.



H.

+1

Now we'll see if you get called a T**T by a certain member.
The reason I deleted my post.

Looking forward to that then. Who is the certain member with the attitude problem? Seems a decent forum discussion about the problems with decision making and communication between drivers. If it gets nasty, then I am well equipped..!!

H.

 

[Zeld4]

The guy in the Renault is a dick and is probably a communist or a Labour voter.

 

[techathy]

If I was sat in that queue, especially after observing the signs and getting over, I would have been miffed that someone had cut in at the last minute. I am in the camp that earlier selection of lane and smooth entrance to a single lane is better than a double, shorter, queue and people then cutting in.



H.

+1

Now we'll see if you get called a T**T by a certain member.
The reason I deleted my post.

Looking forward to that then. Who is the certain member with the attitude problem? Seems a decent forum discussion about the problems with decision making and communication between drivers. If it gets nasty, then I am well equipped..!!

H.

My comment was more the blow to the ego as you realise you're being a t**t for not actually using the available road space.

EDIT: added emphasis

 

[pvr]

For those that want to queue up early, I would really like to understand the reasoning behind it as it is not often that I can ask someone about this (similar to that I can never speak to a middle lane hogger to understand their reasoning).

- If the sign for roadworks is 2 miles ahead, when do you start moving over. As soon as the sign is there? At 1 mile? at 400 yards? What is perceived to be the "correct" merge time?
- I assume you know that scientifically, two queues into a funnel shortens the queue length.

Will you only merge in turn when there is a sign telling you to like below?

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmobile.pistonheads.com%2Fgassing%2Ftopic.asp%3Fh%3D0%26f%3D23%26t%3D1504634%26i%3D40%26mid%3D0%26nmt%3DPoll%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bqueue%2Bor%2Bmerge%2Bthread%2Bat%2Broadworks&ei=3KQ4VcWPK4XLaNzTgdAO&bvm=bv.91427555,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNELFgaWrWx8PQgH0oFDVrFN7PVS1Q&ust=1429861979611687

In NL, they are putting those signs up permanently (which means - zip from here), also some interesting reading in general about this as it is a traffic violation in some countries if you do NOT use both lines (Belgium)

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rc...aWrWx8PQgH0oFDVrFN7PVS1Q&ust=1429861979611687

 

[PerryGunn]

- I assume you know that scientifically, two queues into a funnel shortens the queue length.

The problem with statements like that is you have to define how you measure queue length as you can measure it in terms of distance/area, i.e. the amount of tarmac it occupies, or you can measure it in terms of time, i.e. how much of a delay is it causing to vehicles - sometimes a queue that is longer (distance) can actually be shorter (time).

As you know, I used to work for a traffic management organisation and had a lot of this sort of stuff explained to me at one time or another. AIUI, and to the best of my recollection, to minimise traffic queueing, the aim should be to maximise flow rates through any pinch points as this should, in turn, minimise individual vehicle delay. I can't remember all of the different zones within the region defined by a queue, but I seem to recall that the most important is the transition area where traffic enters the pinch point as any reduction in flow rate at this point has the largest overall effect.

The upshot of this is that your 'two queues into a funnel' is only efficient as long as the two queues can merge without significantly slowing each other down, otherwise merging at higher speed further out from a pinch point is more efficient as the intervening distance has a buffering/smoothing effect allowing greater overall flow. This is all theoretical though as, in the real world, nothing ever works like this....

 

[Russ59]

I admit 2 queue's makes queuing time shorter in theory but in reality it doesn't ALWAYS work because on the roads today it seems its every man for himself and you get people in the live lane thinking " f**k you I'm not letting you in, I've been queuing longer than you "
And no I'm not one of those people.

As was said earlier if it worked like a zip where every other person let one in, no problem but sadly a lot of people don't look at it like that.
There aren't many courteous drivers left these days.

 

[Nictrix]

It doesnt matter when you funnel in the queue will be the same length.
The only people to benefit are the people who leave it till the last minute to jump in and to them it seems like the system works.

 

[Jasey]

It doesnt matter when you funnel in the queue will be the same length.
The only people to benefit are the people who leave it till the last minute to jump in and to them it seems like the system works.

Merge in turn At the point you have to and the problem goes away.

If you want to wait 2 miles back fill yer boots.

The problem is that most drivers are sheep like and as there isn't a sign saying "merge here" everyone has a different opinion on where the merge should take place.

If it was clear that you should merge at the point you have too everyone would be much happier

 

[pvr]

Surely it can not be that expensive to add a few signs as I posted above before the roadworks stating "start merge here" and "let others in" etc. Takes all the unknown out of the issue and less conflict I would say.

 

[Jasey]

Surely it can not be that expensive to add a few signs as I posted above before the roadworks stating "start merge here" and "let others in" etc. Takes all the unknown out of the issue and less conflict I would say.

Have seen roadworks with that and you still get the odd prick that thinks they know best - like the cnut in the Renault above

 

[Havard]

Had to laugh today and went against my usual "get over early" habit to (IMO), improve traffic flow.

As you come down the slip road to the M60 near Rochdale there were cones bringing two lanes down to one. I stayed on the inside, even though every one else got over early, whilst maintaining a similar speed of about 30mph, I tried to merge and the guy behind me (sort of in my blindspot) sped up, cutting me off and actually leaving me about 8 cars behind my original position as I had to come to a complete halt or cause an accident.

I will be returning to my normal stance for future reference as you cannot judge this situation by just queue length. Time, distance, relative speeds, driver attitudes can all upset the apple cart at any point. I did it as an exercise and I stand by my findings.

H.

 

[jimmybell]

Basically, people think they're being clever by merging early, then get pissy when people don't do it - as if they're not abiding by the 'good will code'. However as pvr says, thats not how you drive. merging early does nothing but push the queue backwards, its not like it helps anyone.

On the flip side - if you were following the crowd and got undertaken like that, you'd be pissy, and i can understand why renaultman did what he did - but he is wrnog to do so, just queue properly.

Equally the merc guy is clearly going too fast - and knowingly going to piss people off, once the guy pulls out in front of him, he should accept it, and think of more important things. Both of them swerving around like kids should earn them both some points.

 

[Nictrix]

The queue is always going to go backwards, it doesnt matter where everybody merges, 2 into 1 will always create a bottleneck that will back up, as does slowing a busy 70mph road down to 50mph.
As I said earlier the people who cut in at the last minute think its the way to stop a queue building up, it will always build up. 1 lane a mile long will take the same length of time to go through the cones as 2 lanes half a mile long, possibly even longer as people will have to stop to let people merge in.
I am not saying that cutting in at the last minute is wrong, I do it myself depending on how I am feeling at the time, its just not the way to stop queues, they will always be there, just the people who cut in are not affected.

 

[domsz4]

Surely it can not be that expensive to add a few signs as I posted above before the roadworks stating "start merge here" and "let others in" etc. Takes all the unknown out of the issue and less conflict I would say.

it would be a waste of money imho. i go through a fixed pinch point every day. usually the traffic is solid in both lanes and merges ok. but ~10% of drivers will still go right to the end and over all the hatching to get just that 1 car further even when they have a perfectly good gap to fit into. also what really boils my piss with some of them is when they get arsey at you for holding back a bit as you are along side a lorry or bus at the pinch point?? no point in pushing up as there is no where to go so just tuck in behind :headbang:

i can see why lorry drivers get annoyed in those situations like the guy on the m6 video.

 

[buzyg]

The queue is always going to go backwards, it doesnt matter where everybody merges, 2 into 1 will always create a bottleneck that will back up, as does slowing a busy 70mph road down to 50mph.
As I said earlier the people who cut in at the last minute think its the way to stop a queue building up, it will always build up. 1 lane a mile long will take the same length of time to go through the cones as 2 lanes half a mile long, possibly even longer as people will have to stop to let people merge in.
I am not saying that cutting in at the last minute is wrong, I do it myself depending on how I am feeling at the time, its just not the way to stop queues, they will always be there, just the people who cut in are not affected.

As mentioned in am earlier post, it's down to flow rates. Slowing traffic from 70 to 50 mph means that the cars can travel closer together safely and hence more vehicles per minute can pass a given point, (Basically there's less of the rubber band thing with cars speeding up then stopping, so you all get there a bit quicker.) different from the two into one scenario that this thread is about. :wink:

 

[techathy]

The queue is always going to go backwards, it doesnt matter where everybody merges, 2 into 1 will always create a bottleneck that will back up, as does slowing a busy 70mph road down to 50mph.
As I said earlier the people who cut in at the last minute think its the way to stop a queue building up, it will always build up. 1 lane a mile long will take the same length of time to go through the cones as 2 lanes half a mile long, possibly even longer as people will have to stop to let people merge in.
I am not saying that cutting in at the last minute is wrong, I do it myself depending on how I am feeling at the time, its just not the way to stop queues, they will always be there, just the people who cut in are not affected.

Where I used to work I had to turn off about 2km from the entrance of a local business park. A bit before my turn off the road had been widened to two lanes. This reduced a typical 6-7km tailback into a total of 1.5-2km of traffic waiting to get into the business park, most days I'd not quite join the back of the nearly stationary queuing traffic. But hang on, that's 3-4km of traffic queue so what happened to the rest? Well that wasn't actually heading to the same location & so was dispersing before getting mixed in wit the business park traffic. So reducing the length of the tailback can reduce the number of cars in the tailback.

 

[Jasey]

The a90 coming into Aberdeen (Charleston) used to get clogged up because of sheep forming single lane queues at road works on the road that followed the off ramp.

So sitting in an un-necessary single lane queue can actually be dangerous too !

Of Course Aberdeen city council have since put traffic lights on that road so now the A90 gets clogged up pretty much every busy day :headbang: