El Pollo Diablo
Member
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EU referendum
- Thread starter marchantsuk
- Start date
Marlon said:
Amazingly, Aljazeera is more neutral than the BBC these days... However, half of their correspondents do seem to be ex-BBC and/or victims of the World Service cut backs. Of course, Aljazeera don't report the rescue of a dog who survived falling half way down a cliff or the guy who has lived in a tree for 20 years.
I've been in Forum retirement mode for months now and shall return there after this post but this topic is one of interest to me.
1. Currency and share price falls are all about uncertainty and markets don't like it. It's not a sign they are pro the remain lobby or anti the leave lobby.
2. Think why FTSE 100 companies might be anti-Brexit. Many of their shareholders will not be British. They don't have your best interests at heart at all.
3. Think why the US might want us to stay in and I'll give you a clue - it isn't because they have our best interests at heart either.
4. If you think Brexit means economic hardship you're a fool. Switzerland has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Last time I looked it wasn't in the EU.
5. The EU nations collectively owe €14 trillion. There are several countries that are, to all intents and purposes, bankrupt. Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Portugal all have debt of more than 100% of their GDP and France is very close. The whole club is being kept afloat by a few wealthy nations.
6. Do what you always do get what you always get.
7. If you're in a club and you don't like the rules you have two choices - stay in and put up with it or leave and form a breakaway.
8. If you believe we are more secure in Europe you're mistaken. In our history most of the major threats to our security have originated from Europe.
9. Germany sells 1m cars a year to the UK. Yet you think free trade will cease if we leave!? I mean, come on!!
10. Don't believe anyone who claims to know what will happen if we leave. They won't. Equally, don't believe anyone who tells you the roof will cave in. They said the same about the Euro.
11. Lastly, vote with your conscience and instinct. If you want closer political links and move towards federalism vote to stay in. If you're tired of the whole EU-thing vote to leave. There's life on the outside. What's the point of being in a club when the only argument to stay in is to scaremonger about exit.
1. Currency and share price falls are all about uncertainty and markets don't like it. It's not a sign they are pro the remain lobby or anti the leave lobby.
2. Think why FTSE 100 companies might be anti-Brexit. Many of their shareholders will not be British. They don't have your best interests at heart at all.
3. Think why the US might want us to stay in and I'll give you a clue - it isn't because they have our best interests at heart either.
4. If you think Brexit means economic hardship you're a fool. Switzerland has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Last time I looked it wasn't in the EU.
5. The EU nations collectively owe €14 trillion. There are several countries that are, to all intents and purposes, bankrupt. Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Portugal all have debt of more than 100% of their GDP and France is very close. The whole club is being kept afloat by a few wealthy nations.
6. Do what you always do get what you always get.
7. If you're in a club and you don't like the rules you have two choices - stay in and put up with it or leave and form a breakaway.
8. If you believe we are more secure in Europe you're mistaken. In our history most of the major threats to our security have originated from Europe.
9. Germany sells 1m cars a year to the UK. Yet you think free trade will cease if we leave!? I mean, come on!!
10. Don't believe anyone who claims to know what will happen if we leave. They won't. Equally, don't believe anyone who tells you the roof will cave in. They said the same about the Euro.
11. Lastly, vote with your conscience and instinct. If you want closer political links and move towards federalism vote to stay in. If you're tired of the whole EU-thing vote to leave. There's life on the outside. What's the point of being in a club when the only argument to stay in is to scaremonger about exit.
original guvnor said:
Great points well presented, this is much more informative then half the guff printed in the press
Not saying I agree with any, or all of the following, but we have all had many years to cement our positions on 'in' or 'out' based on facts, assumptions and prejudices, often on quite narrowly focused issues (immigration, bureaucracy, jobs etc) which we each feel affect us directly.
It may well be that we would have achieved most or all of the following without the EU, but just thought that this extract from a letter from Simon Sweeney (published in the Guardian) was thought provoking....
"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.
Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"
It may well be that we would have achieved most or all of the following without the EU, but just thought that this extract from a letter from Simon Sweeney (published in the Guardian) was thought provoking....
"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.
Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"
jimmybell said:
agree - such points never stand up to scrutiny. They are all shaded to look like a coherent argument, but miss the underlying point in each and every one. Nothing in such arguments is ever black and white.
1. Currency does not just move on uncertainty. If leaving were good then it would be rising daily in anticipation of this great new thriving economy. Good news is my EU property is worth £20-30k more than 6 months ago so I'm lovin' it, but my holidays will costs more....
9. Of course Germany will still sell us cars, however with point 1 above they will be far too expensive for us to buy and 2 over time they and all the other manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, JLR, etc.) will leave the UK and not source parts here.
Just illustrations that all is never clear cut.
Overall in or out won't be our generations gain or loss, but our children's as such thinks take years to make any structural impact. That's tha basis I will be working on.
cj10jeeper said:
agree - such points never stand up to scrutiny. They are all shaded to look like a coherent argument, but miss the underlying point in each and every one. Nothing in such arguments is ever black and white.
1. Currency does not just move on uncertainty. If leaving were good then it would be rising daily in anticipation of this great new thriving economy. Good news is my EU property is worth £20-30k more than 6 months ago so I'm lovin' it, but my holidays will costs more....
9. Of course Germany will still sell us cars, however with point 1 above they will be far too expensive for us to buy and 2 over time they and all the other manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, JLR, etc.) will leave the UK and not source parts here.
Just illustrations that all is never clear cut.
Overall in or out won't be our generations gain or loss, but our children's as such thinks take years to make any structural impact. That's tha basis I will be working on.[/quote]
Sorry but none of that is correct CJ. It's typical of the sort of argument pro-EU voters peddle but none of it is fact. The same people told us we were making a big mistake not joining the Euro.
Which bits don't bear scrutiny - are you telling me those countries I mentioned don't owe more than 100% of their GDP or that total EU debt isn't €14 trillion or that Switzerland isn't one of the wealthiest nations in the world based on GDP per head of the population for example?
The thread was a fact vacuum until my previous post.
I never put my post as 'fact' merely to suggest that simple bullet points are shaded, not intentionally but complex economics don't distil to single sentences.
Currency is not solely based on sentiment, so that's not a fact.
For sure those countries listed may have debt of >100% of GDP, but so what. It may be a fact, but they don't spontaneously combust at a given %. I worked 15 months in S Ireland and currently based between Paris, Lisbon and Madrid working with leading financial institutions, so have pretty good insight into the macro economics of Europe.
I just think leaving is a wonderful romantic idea of self governing, booming economy, trading freely with everyone from Europe to commonwealth to US, low immigration and all things rosy. Just my opinion, not right or wrong.
Currency is not solely based on sentiment, so that's not a fact.
For sure those countries listed may have debt of >100% of GDP, but so what. It may be a fact, but they don't spontaneously combust at a given %. I worked 15 months in S Ireland and currently based between Paris, Lisbon and Madrid working with leading financial institutions, so have pretty good insight into the macro economics of Europe.
I just think leaving is a wonderful romantic idea of self governing, booming economy, trading freely with everyone from Europe to commonwealth to US, low immigration and all things rosy. Just my opinion, not right or wrong.
I'm not saying you did but both you and Jimmy said they didn't bear up to scrutiny but several of those points do, because they are facts.
Ultimately this comes down to political philosophy - if you like the EU and what it stands for then vote yes but if you don't like it and the compromises it brings then vote no. We will have a bright future either way. At the moment the only arguments from the pro EU campaign is how terrible it will be if we leave. You did it again above.
How about coming up with some positive reasons to stay rather than painting a doomsday scenario?
Ultimately this comes down to political philosophy - if you like the EU and what it stands for then vote yes but if you don't like it and the compromises it brings then vote no. We will have a bright future either way. At the moment the only arguments from the pro EU campaign is how terrible it will be if we leave. You did it again above.
How about coming up with some positive reasons to stay rather than painting a doomsday scenario?
original guvnor said:
I think both sides of the argument are painting doomsday scenarios - if we come out it'll be curtains, if we stay in, it'll be pants...
I think both options involve compromise. At the moment it seems to me that the compromises involved in staying in are a little better understood (because we are living with them now) than those we would have to accept if we come out. Hopefully more information will be forthcoming over the next few months to allow people to make reasoned judgements...
original guvnor said:
Hey, i don't disagree - i sit in a likely-to-lose-my-job-but-still-likely-to-vote-brexit situation. facts are facts, sure, but Britain First are factually patriotic - but that's missing the point. Yes some EU countries have terrible debt, but we have a terrible deficit (and are in the midst of another property boom) and rely too heavily on the financial industry (norway, oil, yadda yadda).
Switzerland - yeah, they're a bit of a special case. A small country with a totally neutral stand in foreign policy (somewhat questionable too, providing services to .. terrorism), long standing stable political and economic landscape, surrounded by the EU (thus protected without the need for a huge military), and the worlds safe haven for tax avoidance, gold storage, money storage, etc etc. We are not Switzerland.
I'm sure you can scrutinise the rest of your points yourself, the opposing arguments are not difficult to make. (To the extent i cant actually be bothered, sorry - it's the follow-on debate from that that's actually interesting and relevant).
Per my previous post - i think instinct isn't a strong method of picking a side - again, the large portion of the voting population is old, not young, and they'll back their old ideals of nationalism and 'the good old days', and the typical red/blue/yellow/green - "you gotta be in a club, and stick to it for life" rather than have a pragmatic investigatory method of making an informed (beyond scratching the surface) decision... whilst the young are the ones that will endure the consequences of their decisions. A bit like the last few elections.
It's also not about 'what the EU stands for'. If you don't think the future of the planet is greater union, you're stuck in the dark ages and i suspect disagree with the majority of todays youth. What the EU stands for is a nice concept, it's the execution that has me voting against it (and the lack of ability to fix it's direction - before anyone claims "you cant fix it from the outside"). It's really not a simple decision. I also suspect on exit, there wont be any going back (as they wont want it, and the EU might collapse anyway).
ranski said:
+1 ...or would all of our beaches have ended up knee deep in sewage?
Just goes to show that neither side are going to be able to back up their case with many hard facts. However, there are some fundamental principals at stake with sovereignty, democracy and viable economic immigration at the very core.
North West Surrey
Gustavo7 said:
The only problem with this is that pay and living /standards are is far higher in Norway than Poland, so labour costs make Poland a cheaper option.
I think that is why the UK has very little manufacturing industry left - we have all become used to a good standard of living.
I read something the other day that suggested we have so many economic migrants from the former Eastern bloc because our minimum wage can be 3 or 4 times theirs, so despite higher costs of living they are still better off in the UK.
Of course if we left only UK residents would get the benefit of a higher minimum wage (assuming they could be bothered to get out of bed)! Cynical, me?
markeg said:
Perhaps it is the only one he has experience of.....
As l far as I can recall they've always been just slightly more "central" in their views than the Guardian! Socialism is much more palatable when you are part of the privileged elite!