EBC - Bluestuff or Yellowstuff ???

[DONDP]

It just so happens i have a full set of Carbonne Lorraines rc5+. They are used but only on one track day so still loads left on them. They are without a doubt the best pad I have used in the oem setup but they dont have retaining clips so do rattle a bit for road use. I have just put on some APs so open to offers on the old pads if your interested.


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[BMWZ4MC]

Z4M-ANT PM sent

 

[Z4M_Ant]

Sorry guys only just getting back to your messages.

Appreciated all the feedback you gave - I just didnt get a chance to reply. I went to the trackday without changing pads in the end - they lasted well and braking wasnt an issue. Spoke to a few lads up there and most recommended Ferodo DS 2500's as a good road/track pad. However, one of the instructors recommended AP calipers &/ pads. Am I right in thinking that the AP Calipers for the front each side are around £320 ?? I can see this getting rather expensive...anyone recommend a place to buy from ??

So...im thinking leave the discs, and go for AP calipers & Ferodo DS 2500 pads ?? Alot of mixing and matching I know.

I spoke to a few guys at the track also about Bluestuff and most didnt have a bad word to say - the general concencus with the topic seemed to be down to personal preference.

 

[ga41]

I'm not sure if you can buy an AP Racing calliper set only for our cars. Haven't heard of it being done before to be honest. If there's not a kit available you'd have to have custom calliper carriers made... A chap here has retrofitted Porsche 911 callipers with custom carriers on stock M discs and said he was happy with the braking though.

What is it exactly you're trying to improve though? Multipiston callipers won't help with braking force or (much) with better thermal capacity. They will help with better braking feel and perhaps better brake pad selection.

 

[ga41]

Perhaps something to keep an eye on? http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350585790541&ssPageName=ADME:B:FSELE:1123

 

[Z4M_Ant]

Ga41....well I found that during the track day the brakes faded fairly quickly...which I believe was due to the fact that the calipers just arnt man enough to disipate all the heat quick enough - so I was told by some guys at the track.

The pads need replacing soon anyway - they currently have racing pads (unsure which brand as previous owner fitted these) so in terms of performance im after similar stopping power to what I have, but just for them to last a little longer.

Thanks also for the post of the BMW Performance Calipers - they look awesome. Only problem being I dont speak nor understand German...

 

[ga41]

What brake fluid are you running? Besides the big brake kit which i only recently installed the single best braking upgrade i did was good brake fluid. I can vouch for Endless RF 650 and Motul RBF 660 fluids. If you're experiencing a spongy brake pedal after some hot laps then good brake fluid will help a great deal.

 

[tertius]

Ga41....well I found that during the track day the brakes faded fairly quickly...which I believe was due to the fact that the calipers just arnt man enough to disipate all the heat quick enough - so I was told by some guys at the track.

I don't have a Z4M so can't comment specifically, but I do have a fair amount of experience running cars on track with a range of pads and I would say the problem you describe "may" be a caliper problem but it may not.

Brakes do indeed get hot, and they need to dissipate that heat somehow - brakes are basically machines for converting kinetic energy to heat.

If you brakes are fading due to heat then there a couple of things you can do to address it:

Firstly better fluid may resist heat better - as other have mentioned Motul RBF, Castrol SRF, ATE Super are all good. As well as using good quality fluid it also needs to be fresh - certainly change it at least every 12 months.

Secondly you need to maximise airflow through the brakes in order to help dissipate heat - if you can get cool air from the front of the car directed directly to the center of the disc rotation of the disc will daw air through and cool them down very effectively.

Thirdly better pads will work better when hot - having tried almost every pad around I would say Performance Friction are the best for absolute braking performance but shocking for noise; Pagid RS 14 are nearly as good, better for noise but a bit wooden from cold; RS4-2 are not quite as good as 14s but better from cold, more suited to road and track than pure track; Carbon Lorraine's are fine certainly up with RS4-2 or even 14s for performance but I find the Pagids easier to modulate and wouldn't have CL again; DS2500 seem to work well but don't last as well as Pagids.

Finally if none of those work the I would look at uprating the discs and calipers - bigger discs/calipers will absorb heat better as they are in effect a bigger heat sink but it's an expensive option.

Personally I would focus on the first three first - in particular improved cooling made a fantastic improvement on my 911, plus it has the advantage it will still be a help if you do go to bigger discs/calipers, ie it is not wasted.

 

[mmm-five]

Might not be applicable in your situation, but have you had any track driving instruction? If not, then get some (and ask to specifically concentrate on braking) and I'm sure you'll find you'll be easier on the brakes whilst carrying more speed through the corners.

My Z4MC manages Oulton, Cadwell & the Nordschleife without fading, and the only thing non-standard are the brake pads (EBC Yellow/Blue) as the BMW ones are useless for track work. The last set of Yellowstuff pads lasted over 30k miles, and I'm now onto Bluestuff NDX pads. Still on the (genuine BMW) discs I fitted at the same time as the Yellowstuffs, and that was over 40k miles (3 track days and 3 'Ring trips) ago.

 

[ga41]

That is also a good suggestion by mmm-five. I'd love to get some track driving tuition but no one does that out here...

 

[tertius]

Might not be applicable in your situation, but have you had any track driving instruction? If not, then get some (and ask to specifically concentrate on braking) and I'm sure you'll find you'll be easier on the brakes whilst carrying more speed through the corners.

Very good advice.

 

[exdos]

See my DIY brake cooling mod: http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=38775

 

[Z4M_Ant]

Mmm-five your right I think further tuition is required - I did undergo some tuition Thursday - although I didnt think it was a complete waste, I did think the guy was well passed his sell by date and seemed to just be seeing out his retirement - my own fault, but being my first track day I didnt quite know what to expect - I should have asked for specifics. However, the guy who tuitioned my Dad was apparently much more outgoing with covering all bases which helped him - and hes more experienced on the track than I am.

I do think some forced air directed to the brakes will definitely help Exdos...your previous write up looks great so will at some point be looking into that.

The brake fluid I use is DOT 5.1 so would take masses of harsh braking before boiling it. So thats one box ticked.

Ga1...contacted that seller in Germany about those calipers - turns out they come with an adapter kit and I believe brackets for an extra 430 EUR ... so ontop of the 650 EUR the calipers were up for, makes them a bit more expensive. Saying that they are still cheaper than sourcing them from the UK / Second Hand.

Thanks for the advice Tertius, Ive ticked one of the 3 boxes, so next will be new pads and forced air feed. Then maybe a new set of calipers - standard discs are 345mm anyway so in terms of size, they arn't on the small side so I'd imagine a new set of 6 pot calipers would be a good move as a final resort. Are you still doing track days / races ??

 

[ga41]

There are 5.1 fluids and 5.1 fluids and even other brake fluids that don't conform to a standard at all but outperform the minimum requirements of DOT5.1.

Besides, how fresh is your fluid? I replace mine at least once a year and sometimes even more depending on how many times i tracked the car.

 

[tertius]

The very highest performance fluids for racing and track use will be DOT 4 e.g. Castrol SRF. DOT5.1 has standards for performance at very low temperature for example, that the best racing fluids don't bother to meet, so can't be classified DOT 5.1

 

[tertius]

Thanks for the advice Tertius, Ive ticked one of the 3 boxes, so next will be new pads and forced air feed. Then maybe a new set of calipers - standard discs are 345mm anyway so in terms of size, they arn't on the small side so I'd imagine a new set of 6 pot calipers would be a good move as a final resort. Are you still doing track days / races ??

I'm not doing a lot at the moment. I am about to put my Elise track car up for sale and then planning to build a Z4MC based replacement. The only thing I have booked is a DN track day at the 'ring in October - hope to have it ready by then. If possible I will also try to get a couple of UK days in before for a shake down.

I agree the standard brakes are not small, and I am a great believer in maximising the performance of the standard equipment before starting to change things fundamentally, hence my advice.

Of course the other thing you can do to improve the performance of your brakes is shed some weight from the car.

 

[ga41]

Thanks for the advice Tertius, Ive ticked one of the 3 boxes, so next will be new pads and forced air feed. Then maybe a new set of calipers - standard discs are 345mm anyway so in terms of size, they arn't on the small side so I'd imagine a new set of 6 pot calipers would be a good move as a final resort. Are you still doing track days / races ??

I'm not doing a lot at the moment. I am about to put my Elise track car up for sale and then planning to build a Z4MC based replacement. The only thing I have booked is a DN track day at the 'ring in October - hope to have it ready by then. If possible I will also try to get a couple of UK days in before for a shake down.

I agree the standard brakes are not small, and I am a great believer in maximising the performance of the standard equipment before starting to change things fundamentally, hence my advice.

Of course the other thing you can do to improve the performance of your brakes is shed some weight from the car.

That would solve so much more problems! A Z4M minus 100-150kg would be THE perfect sports car for me.

 

[IKZ4]

Driving style is a big factor. I took my Z3MR round the Alps last year after a full strip and refurb of suspension and brakes. With new discs and yellowstuff pads, I had awful trouble trying to stay with my mates in their 500kg kit cars. After an Alpine descent we stopped at some lights and my brakes were cooked, blue discs and lots of smoke. I realised that I'd been trying to drive a 1500kg car plus 2 people and a full boot as I used to drive my 460kg bike engined kit car. I changed my braking style and the brakes were fine for the rest of the trip. So yellowstuff were fine for me, but you have to bear in mind the car's mass, especially downhill.