Bits to budget for / am I insane?

[groovy_hippy]

So, it's (almost) confirmed that I still have a job after a number of months of faff/the unknown. And....I'm wondering if to treat myself to an Z4M convertible...less commuting means less miles being thrown on it each year!

What I'm most interested in, is 'what stuff might go wrong/might need doing and how much ££ should I put aside'. We've had Porsches for years so are pretty clued up on those (tyres, IMS bearings, suspension rebuilds, service history etc etc), but knowledge of BMW (especially M cars) is limited.

I guess a starter for 10 comes from my current Z or what I'd budget for when buying any car:
Roof motor refurb/move to boot (£200?)
VANOS (I think?) (upto £1k?)
ABS pump (£500?)
Water pump (is that still 'a thing' on Ms?) (£500?)
Tyres (£800 a set?)
Brakes (£750 on an M for a full set?)
Oil Service (£250?)

What else is there that's M-specific and 'a potential buyer should look out for being done (recently)/budget to have done' ? Now, money isn't unlimited, but it could be stretched to accommodate an M - something at the £15k mark. I just need to understand how much that £15k might 'get added to' ....

 

[Ed Doe]

Rod bearings - £1200
Scored camshafts/flattened lifters - £4500

Vanos is about a grand from Mr Vanos.

Head gaskets are known for going on the S54 in the e46 m3 but seems less prevalent in the z4m, various theories knocking about but worth a compression check for peace of mind.

 

[Mr Tidy]

I've only had my MC since December, but did plenty of research before I bought it as an early Christmas present!

You want to check the service history closely as I understand the running in service at around 1,000 miles is critical, even if it was done a bit late. That will also give you an idea of where it is in the service routine. It should be Oil Service, Inspection 1, Oil Service, Inspection 2 then repeat the same sequence.

Because the valves aren't hydraulically adjusted they need to be checked (with the engine cold) and adjusted with shims at each Inspection service so I'd budget for about £500 for an Inspection 1 at a good Indy and a bit more for an Inspection 2 as that includes gearbox and diff oil.

Ms don't have electric water pumps so I think they are less of an issue than on the N52 engines and you'll get a dipstick!

I haven't found out about brakes yet, but tyre cost depends largely on the brand you want - although they shouldn't be horrific as they aren't run-flats.

I wouldn't recommend test driving one unless you are prepared to really want one, but good luck finding the right one.

 

[mark seeker]

So, it's (almost) confirmed that I still have a job after a number of months of faff/the unknown. And....I'm wondering if to treat myself to an Z4M convertible...less commuting means less miles being thrown on it each year!

What I'm most interested in, is 'what stuff might go wrong/might need doing and how much ££ should I put aside'. We've had Porsches for years so are pretty clued up on those (tyres, IMS bearings, suspension rebuilds, service history etc etc), but knowledge of BMW (especially M cars) is limited.

I guess a starter for 10 comes from my current Z or what I'd budget for when buying any car:
Roof motor refurb/move to boot (£200?)
VANOS (I think?) (upto £1k?)
ABS pump (£500?)
Water pump (is that still 'a thing' on Ms?) (£500?)
Tyres (£800 a set?)
Brakes (£750 on an M for a full set?)
Oil Service (£250?)

What else is there that's M-specific and 'a potential buyer should look out for being done (recently)/budget to have done' ? Now, money isn't unlimited, but it could be stretched to accommodate an M - something at the £15k mark. I just need to understand how much that £15k might 'get added to' ....

Just my experiences...
If the roof motor is working, you can get away with a £200 move, if it is a new motor is broken, factor £900+ fitted
ABS pump is around £400 for a rebuild from memory, a new pump is the thick end of £2k (a number of people do the much cheaper rebuild)
Brakes I think you're looking close to £1k for OEM pads/discs/fluids all fitted

I would aim to buy a car with the a recent service/tyres/brakes or at least factor in the prices on the bid.

 

[MrPT]

Definitely drive one first.

 

[groovy_hippy]

Thanks for the comments guys....

Definitely drive one first.

My problem is, if I drive one, I expect I'll fall in love with it and buy it (heart will rule head and things like service history etc will go out of the window)....

 

[ph001]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

 

[groovy_hippy]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

Interesting. I had wondered if a lot of the horror stories are overstated - just look at Porsche and IMS failures. We had a 996 911 and had the IMS done as a precaution while doing other work - it was fine. Our 987 Boxster is on over 100k miles and never had an IMS or any engine trouble!
I guess looking at Z4Ms / S54 engines - MOST of them are perfectly fine and need only a bit of work throughout their lives, but the ones that do go pop for whatever reason are the ones we hear about.... There's also a lot to be said for using the engine as intended - ie, not labouring it and making sure its allowed to rev (to splash the oil around the right bits)....

 

[MrPT]

Thanks for the comments guys....

Definitely drive one first.

My problem is, if I drive one, I expect I'll fall in love with it and buy it (heart will rule head and things like service history etc will go out of the window)....

I dunno, I found it a mixed bag. Definitely a challenge and quite hard to enjoy at first.

The engine may win you over on its own, however.

 

[Ed Doe]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

My comments re flattened followers, scored cams, Rod bearings and head gasket are all direct experience either on mine or my mates late model e46 m3, as are the costs quoted.

 

[R_P_M_]

Gives you an idea of some of the more major costs:

https://www.redish-motorsport.com/BMWE85E86Z4M.html

 

[Mr Tidy]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

To be fair costs will vary according to where you are. I'm sure like me Ed would love to pay N. Yorks prices!

Insp2 is pricey, but was well worth it for me as Ross (Bowser134) had to put shims in 5 of my valves - probably because they hadn't been checked for almost 30k miles. :roll:

 

[DevonPaul]

Interesting. I had wondered if a lot of the horror stories are overstated - just look at Porsche and IMS failures. We had a 996 911 and had the IMS done as a precaution while doing other work - it was fine. Our 987 Boxster is on over 100k miles and never had an IMS or any engine trouble!
I guess looking at Z4Ms / S54 engines - MOST of them are perfectly fine and need only a bit of work throughout their lives, but the ones that do go pop for whatever reason are the ones we hear about.... There's also a lot to be said for using the engine as intended - ie, not labouring it and making sure its allowed to rev (to splash the oil around the right bits)....

As you say - you only hear the horror stories on the internet. We had an MR2 roadster that went over 100k with no problems, if you believe the internet it is the only one in thhe UK that still had intact pre-cats. I'm still waiting for the notoriously fragile clutch on the Maser to fail without warning and leave me stranded, but after 20+k of ownership it is still only 45% worn, and for some reason the rear wishbones haven't cracked yet, not has the subframe rusted away, or etc etc.

The biggest cost on our Z has been road tax each year, it is more the the servicing on average, and insurance was under £150 yesterday as we no longer need business use. I ignore consumables, as that varies with how much you use it.

You could just set up a savings account - put (say) £200/month (the lease cost on a basic Honda Civic) in and then withdraw whatever you spend on the car for tax/service/etc. It should build up a nice surplus over time and if something big crops up then it will take some of the pain away.

Paul

 

[R60BBA]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

My comments re flattened followers, scored cams, Rod bearings and head gasket are all direct experience either on mine or my mates late model e46 m3, as are the costs quoted.

Out of interest on the camshaft point, which brand of oil was the car run on?

 

[Ed Doe]

Out of interest on the camshaft point, which brand of oil was the car run on?

The bmw recommended Castrol TWS

 

[R60BBA]

Out of interest on the camshaft point, which brand of oil was the car run on?

The bmw recommended Castrol TWS

Really?! I’ve heard of this with Millers but never Castrol.

That is interesting. *scratches head*

 

[groovy_hippy]

So...update on where my mind has been wandering...I enquired about one on Autotrader (the red one at circa 14k - not the one that's also for sale privately here ). Looking at its history, it looks like it was doted on until about 2016, where it changed owners and then things changed - e.g. it's MOT and tax lapsed for 2 years or so - could be fine, but I'd prefer one that's been 'kept alive' as it were. Also, this talk of engines going pop and such - I'm just not sure I can budget for that right now - that's not to say I won't be able to in the future though. I've always wanted a red one! :lol:

 

[mmm-five]

I wouldn't read too much into the tales on here, as there are probably over 100,000 S54s made, and many running into higher mileages with only scheduled maintenance, and there aren't thousands with major issues, so you're looking at a 1% chance. The engines in the earlier M3/Z3M were more prone to these than those in the later M3/Z4M.

The 3 well-known issues are:

• Vanos (mine's on the original)
• Rod bearings (mine lasted 140,000 miles)
• Water pump (I replaced mine at 100,000 miles)

But how many have failed due to any of these will be in quite low numbers.

Even my (2nd engine) lasted 140,000 miles albeit with shortened service intervals, i.e. oil change & oil/air filter every 6,000 miles, Inspection every year (based on 25-30k miles a year, including track days/ring trips)...and it's not one that could be said to have been used to 'drive Miss Daisy'

 

[BMWZ4MC]

I think most of the costs have been a little overstated to be honest, and camshaft / lifter failure is very rare indeed. Vanos / bearing shells I guess eventually will need doing but tons of facelift M3’s are way past 100k miles and still on original.

Roof motor relocation is £80 from Durham Dave, although I would recommend keeping it where it is and just pulling the bungs.

Water pump not an issue.

ABS pump refurb is £200 from ecutesting, with lifetime warranty.

If you are prepared to DIY the brakes then can easily be done for significantly less than a grand.

The insp2 is pricey for what it is, and in practice it’s very rare for the shims to need replacing... more often than not it’s measurement error as the tolerance is incredibly tight. Many get adjusted needlessly.

My comments re flattened followers, scored cams, Rod bearings and head gasket are all direct experience either on mine or my mates late model e46 m3, as are the costs quoted.

It sounds like your mate was somewhat overcharged for replacement cams and followers. Did he go OEM or upgrade?
After several forum threads about Z4Ms needing new cams and followers, I asked my Indy what would be the cost to replace both cam shafts and all the lifters in the event of failure. Bearing in mind that he has first-hand experience of doing the job previously, his price was ‘around £1500’. That was about five years ago, so even with inflation it shouldn’t be over £2000 now.
I’m aware of half a dozen Z4Ms that have had new cams and followers, and a similar number that have spun bearing shells. Most were not regular track cars. I think “very rare” understates the frequency of these, but I do agree it is not ubiquitous.

 

[Ed Doe]

It sounds like your mate was somewhat overcharged for replacement cams and followers. Did he go OEM or upgrade?
After several forum threads about Z4Ms needing new cams and followers, I asked my Indy what would be the cost to replace both cam shafts and all the lifters in the event of failure. Bearing in mind that he has first-hand experience of doing the job previously, his price was ‘around £1500’. That was about five years ago, so even with inflation it shouldn’t be over £2000 now.
I’m aware of half a dozen Z4Ms that have had new cams and followers, and a similar number that have spun bearing shells. Most were not regular track cars. I think “very rare” understates the frequency of these, but I do agree it is not ubiquitous.

New oe cams - £1,546
New schrick dlc followers x24 - £1476 (oe ones are even more expensive at £107 a pop!)
Fitting (including head gasket): £1580

Not sure where you're getting your costs from but guessing your indy was quoting based on you supplying the parts!

Fwiw it's possible to reduce the fitting cost by several hundred if you don't do the head gasket and instead remove most of the front end to get the follower tubes out. In my case I'd rather have my pistons inspected and know the head gasket is good before bolting it back up and getting on track again.

Also ironically the schrick cams are a couple of hundred cheaper than oe new ones - but when you factor mapping in it obviously becomes a more expensive route again.