Barack Obama: President of the USA

rabman5 said:
We already have this. I pay a helluva a lot more taxes than someone who makes $30,000 per year. More than they even make. What was proposed is really intended to stabilize the middle class, which is essential to grow our economy. Basic economics.
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What is being proposed by the Democrats is an increase in taxes of those in a higher income. The rhetoric used to justify this is what is basic. It all depends on which end of the telescopic one looks into that determines the perspective of taxation.

You can slice it. You can dice it. It is still a tax increase. (btw, within the 95% of those that will pay less....40% of those pay no taxes whatsoever.) This is politics, man....politics.


rabman5 said:
Great example. We already do subsidize "strangers" car and health insurance. Interesting you would use this scenario as an example so soon after your recent procedure. Especially after admitting that you smoked for many years. Fact is, much of the cost for your care (which I'm very glad you received) was paid by other Americans contributions to insurance. Just as many people never file car insurance claims, their premiums pay for other people's damages. I haven't been hospitalized since I was a child,(in Canada by the way) so where do my health insurance premiums go?
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You just described the insurance industry. A major component of that industry has been directly affected by, guess what: litigation. I had the fortune of being treated at a Kansas based hospital by a doctor that practices (odd term) in Kansas and not Missouri. The insurance premiums for many in the medical field, especially thoracic surgeons, is considerably higher in Missouri, which is only a few miles east of here. Thank the Tort lawyers for this.

Personally, I think that people that put themselves in a higher risk level (smokers, obese, druggies, alcoholics, e.g.) should pay higher premiums than healthier ones. My regrettable decision to smoke cigarettes had consequences I was aware of. I also didn't go to the government to ask for a subsidy because I needed money to help me get off the nicotine addition. How about the part of our society that do not practice safe sex to help prevent STD's like HIV? Do others subsidize their behavior with higher premiums? We do. I don't like it, but we do.

The day insurance company's consider genetics for the level of insurance coverage, premiums etc., is not too far away. Soon, we will know what we are most prone to kill us, medically speaking, by our genetic markers. Just like high risk automobile drivers are given higher premiums. Not quite that severe however.

If you think that the federal government can facilitate medical health coverage then, my friend, go visit a Veteran's Affairs Medical Facility and give me your assessment. It will prove my point that the government needs not be be involve in this hands down. I dare you to go to one and just sit in the patient waiting room for a few hours. I dare you.

Finally, I don't feel it is the right of the government to tax me so an illegal immigrant has medical insurance coverage. Or anyone else that doesn't have health insurance. You want to ride on the bus, my friend? You gotta pay the fare.
 
For those of you talking about propaganda, I'm not sure who sold you the propaganda that the Canadian health care system is bad. During the campaigns, I heard McCain say multiple times, "Senator Obama wants a single payer health care system. You'll end up with a system like Canada...."
I'm not sure who ever gave you the impression that we have a worse health care system than the US. Our system is by no means perfect, but we consistently are ranked higher by the WHO:

WHO overal ranking: Canada 30th, USA 37th
Healthy life expectancy: Canada 12th, USA 24th
Health performance rank based on level of health: Canada 35th, USA 72nd
Total health expenditures as % of GDP: USA 2nd, Canada 18th

There is a very large contingent, including myself, who have been very interested in having the Canadian health care system go towards a two tier system, but study after study has shown that a U.S.-style sytem increases costs significantly without improving outcomes and at the additional cost of having citizens with no coverage.

As some of you know, I am a physician. I have spent 9 months of my training doing thoracic surgery, and ducks, you would not have had to wait long at all for your surgery. And if you looked at the mortality for lung cancer, lung cancer surgery, etc. and compared American to Canadian centres, you would find absolutely no difference. Americans seem to associate convenience (i.e. faster care, fancy hospitals) with better health care, when in fact it often has little impact except for higher cost. Not everyone needs an MRI or CT done tomorrow. In most cases, you can wait a month or two and it won't affect your outcome. For those that need them faster (based on the physician's opinion), they get done faster! I order CT's and MRI's all the time for patients that are done the same day I order them or the next day.

In fact, the American desire for convenience and the fact that your health care system acts like a business can actually hurt you. For example, my specialty is cardiac surgery. In Canada, our cardiac surgery centres, for the most part, are large academic centres that do a high volume of heart surgery. If you need heart surgery, you likely have to go to or be transferred to one of these centres. It may be slightly inconvenient for you, but because of our high volumes, our outcomes are excellent. Mortality for coronary bypass surgery in Canada hovers around 2%.

In the US, because hospitals want business (patients), each hospital tries to offer as many services as possible to make things as convenient as possible. So there are often a dozen or more hospitals in each state that offer cardiac surgery, but at small volumes. That's why in most US hospitals, your cardiac surgeon is also a thoracic surgeon (chest, lungs, etc.) or also a vascular surgeon (peripheral arteries, abdominal aorta, etc.) and only a fraction of his practice is heart surgery. We know that statistically, their outcomes for heart surgery are worse than ours. Your large centres that specialize in cardiac care and have heart surgeons who only do heart surgery, have much better results that are comparable to ours.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the majority of the frustration lies in the fact that you really don't care what the overall health of the US population is. There is an inherent selfishness built into US culture that is both good and bad. It's good because it drives people to work hard, be ambitious and innovative. It's also bad because it leads to greed, corruption, and inequality.

Those of you who are upset about Obama's plans are only thinking about yourselves, because you come first and your country and fellow citizens come second. You don't want his health care plan because you don't want the overall health care of the population to improve if that means you have to wait two weeks for an MRI or if you have to pay higher taxes or premiums (neither of which will necessarily happen).

This insidious greed and selfishness has led the country to where it is now and contributed significantly to the economic crisis. Those handful of individuals who got filthy rich on the backs of thousands if not millions of Americans did so because they thought about themselves first and their country & fellow citizens second. I hate to say this, but many of the views I've read on this thread are not far off from that mentality.

Ducks, I don't mind if you don't care what Canadians have to say. Bush didn't care what most people had to say either including his own citizens. That's the kind of closed-mindedness that people voted against in this election which, again, I applaud.
 
takedown8, I understand your position as a Canadian. However, forward looking voters looked at what is ahead, as Bush's legacy is, well, history. Bush haters are lumped in a group that hates anyway. So no surprise there.

KU Med is a leader in Cardiothoracic surgery. My Doctor, Greg Muehlebach M.D. performed V.A.T.S., which, as you most likely know, is a specialized procedure. No 17" incision with bone crackers and ...okay you get the picture. I got an appointment 6 days after I telephoned, on a Thursday early evening. I reported to the clinic the following Monday for a chemical stress test and was approved by 5pm on the same day. The next day (Tuesday) I was in the OR for a Mediastinoscopy, (negative on 2 lymph nodes) followed by what turned out to be a lobectomy of the upper right side lobe. This took 2hrs and 50 minutes.

I was able to get this procedure because I have health insurance. I pay for this insurance and have done every working day of my life except for the years spent in the UK. I paid for my National Health Insurance there as well. Nothing is free, in spite of what some gullible voters think. And the care I witnessed and go, sucked. Once I twisted my ankle (Guy Fawkes night) walking down a country road. I was taken to Stafford General Infirmary where I was examined and told to come back on Monday (this was a Friday evening). Cursory exam by some freakin foreign doctor. I was given a ace bandage some aspirin and told to put it on ice etc. I wasn't shocked to hear that to determine if there were any broken bones I would need an x-ray. However, since this was not a trauma (car accident with head or chest injury etc.) they x-ray techs would not be called and no x-ray would be taken until Monday.
My ex-wife was/is a practicing midwife in the UK. A highly respected profession there. We had 2 sons born in Stoke-on-Trent under what I consider spartan conditions. I felt like I was in East Germany the way things were done. Of course, we had the option of going private and paying the premium for that level of service. But wait, I already pay for health care. I'm sure you see where this is going.

You live in a country of 33 million people. We in the US have 10 times that population. Hell, our illegal immigrant count is estimated to be 25 million and growing. Do you think that middle class people, like myself, want the burden of paying for their, or anyone that doesn't want to sacrifice their own money, health care costs? You gotta be nuts.
 
20ducks said:
You can slice it. You can dice it. It is still a tax increase. (btw, within the 95% of those that will pay less....40% of those pay no taxes whatsoever.) This is politics, man....politics.
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You're absolutely right my friend. I hate it as much as anyone and don't feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe they have to work to live.
But what is the alternative? Every country has them. We're going to pay for them one way or another. There are no easy answers and unfortunately what has been done isn't working. Just look at the current financial mess. Also remember that tax increases on large corporations don't work either. They just pass the costs on to us, the consumers.

20ducks, I don't know anything on how to start universal health care in the US, nor have I ever claimed to. I don't even know if I would support it. My only point is that we should call President-Elect Obama's programs what they are. Tax increases for those of us who make more than most. Not Marxism, not socialism. I know he said the word redistribution and McCain jumped all over that. I think it's apparent he used the wrong term.

I'm fortunate to have better than average health care available to me and my family. I am a state employee and my wife is a physician. We have both worked hard our entire adult lives and it makes us sick to see people abuse the system, and we both do on a daily basis. Obama's plans may not work. I will end up paying more taxes. I'm willing to give it a chance for the common good of the nation. Can you dig it? :)
 
20ducks said:
Finally, I don't feel it is the right of the government to tax me so an illegal immigrant has medical insurance coverage. Or anyone else that doesn't have health insurance. You want to ride on the bus, my friend? You gotta pay the fare.
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:thumbsup:
Anyone with a medical problem is treated at any hospital in the US regardless of ability to pay. Of course, their inability to pay just means that all the people that do pay, pay more, not just through higher costs, but through state and local taxes that are used to reimburse hospitals for a small percentage of their expenditures. Just like the insurance game; you pay regardless if you use it or not to offset those who use it often.

I am the day charge nurse in ICU at a local hospital. In Florida, the population is more elderly than most parts of our nation and we have a higher legal and illegal immigrant population, mostly from Mexico, than most states. The seniors are basically covered, for the most part, through medicare, which is paid for through our taxes. Very few immigrants, legal or illegal, have any means of paying. Between the two groups, they account for perhaps 90% of our business. Of the immigrant patients, I would guess less than 50% are employed, meaning that I am likely paying for their hospital bill, paying their living expenses, and paying for their children's educational cost. It has been conservatively estimated that the average immigrant cost the US tax payers $1000 a year in federal taxes alone and that amount is likely more than doubled when state and local taxes are applied.

Like Ducks, I have no problem helping out my fellow man, but I tire of the people demanding a free pass at my expense. Don't get me wrong, it is not only some immigrants; we have a whole subculture that feeds off the teat of government and most are very indignant over any suggestion that they should get a job. After Katrina, I read a stat that said that 38% of New Orleans was unemployed and getting government assistance prior to Katrina. And I bet the fat lady who threw the C rations box at the reporter on TV, saying she would not eat this crap while demanding a Big Mac and fries, was one of them.

We hardly need more people thinking they are entitled to a free ride and that the free ride needs to be more fun. After a couple years of assistance, the free ride should be to a third world country and let them see how far they can coast there. The last thing we need is a President that promotes that cultue; we have been too long with ones that turn a blind eye to it.
 
rabman5 said:
20ducks said:
You can slice it. You can dice it. It is still a tax increase. (btw, within the 95% of those that will pay less....40% of those pay no taxes whatsoever.) This is politics, man....politics.
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You're absolutely right my friend. I hate it as much as anyone and don't feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe they have to work to live.
But what is the alternative? Every country has them. We're going to pay for them one way or another. There are no easy answers and unfortunately what has been done isn't working. Just look at the current financial mess. Also remember that tax increases on large corporations don't work either. They just pass the costs on to us, the consumers.

There are alternatives, just not politicians with the balls to suggest them. Unemployed? Want welfare? How about picking up litter on the highways or trimming brush on public roads to get a paycheck? Washing sidewalks? Cleaning school rooms? Mowing the grass on government property? Just a mountain of possibilities; no real skills necessary. And I am one that would bet most would be seeking employment elsewhere if they actually had to work.
 
BombayDuk said:
There are alternatives, just not politicians with the balls to suggest them. Unemployed? Want welfare? How about picking up litter on the highways or trimming brush on public roads to get a paycheck? Washing sidewalks? Cleaning school rooms? Mowing the grass on government property? Just a mountain of possibilities; no real skills necessary. And I am one that would bet most would be seeking employment elsewhere if they actually had to work.
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In theory this is a great idea. My favorite quote from Dickens' Christmas Carol " Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" This was directed at people who didn't pay their way. If this was possible, it would have been done long ago. What happens when they get a doctor to declare them permanently disabled? These people will and do spend more energy avoiding work than it would take to get a job. They are everywhere, in every country. You can't make a person work who doesn't want to. You have to be realistic and know that we are going to pay one way or another. :(
 
That being the case, I sould get to decide where they live and what they eat, just to be fair, since it is my buck. There are indeed a lot of disabled, though, from my perspective, only a small percentage are actually incapable of holding a job. I'll hold the better living quarters and food for them.
 
BombayDuk said:
That being the case, I sould get to decide where they live and what they eat, just to be fair, since it is my buck. There are indeed a lot of disabled, though, from my perspective, only a small percentage are actually incapable of holding a job. I'll hold the better living quarters and food for them.
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:rofl: :thumbsup:
 
They tried a concept here a number of years ago called "Workfare" - The able bodied on welfare quite quickly became disabled and on Unemployment Insurance with a permanent disability. The best laid plans...

Another concept to consider - a new reality game show; call it "Death Race 2008" where we could release at predetermined locations and intervals; prisoners, welfare recipients, socialists, illegals and other non-conformists to our ideology and chase them down in our Z's for prizes and money :driving:
 
takedown8 said:
Whether you want to admit it or not, the majority of the frustration lies in the fact that you really don't care what the overall health of the US population is. There is an inherent selfishness built into US culture that is both good and bad. It's good because it drives people to work hard, be ambitious and innovative. It's also bad because it leads to greed, corruption, and inequality.

Those of you who are upset about Obama's plans are only thinking about yourselves, because you come first and your country and fellow citizens come second. You don't want his health care plan because you don't want the overall health care of the population to improve if that means you have to wait two weeks for an MRI or if you have to pay higher taxes or premiums (neither of which will necessarily happen).

This insidious greed and selfishness has led the country to where it is now and contributed significantly to the economic crisis. Those handful of individuals who got filthy rich on the backs of thousands if not millions of Americans did so because they thought about themselves first and their country & fellow citizens second. I hate to say this, but many of the views I've read on this thread are not far off from that mentality.

Ducks, I don't mind if you don't care what Canadians have to say. Bush didn't care what most people had to say either including his own citizens. That's the kind of closed-mindedness that people voted against in this election which, again, I applaud.
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i would just like to applaud you for this well-written post. i'm sure you know this, but one of the main reasons U.S. Americans don't like waiting 2 weeks for an MRI is due to the fact that we cannot handle delayed gratification. we want things now now now and at no matter the cost. and you are right.. the only person that benefits is the individual that sparked the movement (but so that only they can benefit first.. then others second).

on a tangent.. instead of bailing out all the corrupt banks that gave out bad loans... why not help the homeowners in exactly the same way the U.S. gov't gave their citizens a stimulus check?? why invest trillions of dollars in a war when you could have done some spectacular things for the U.S. of A.?????

in any case... try going to a free clinic in your area for an ear infection. do you know how much it is going to be JUST to see a doctor???? 273 dollars. i have the bill to prove it. im not going to front... it would be nice if i had some help in paying that. im going with a notion of... "if i had the money... i would get it"

//a few random comments.
 
on a tangent.. instead of bailing out all the corrupt banks that gave out bad loans... why not help the homeowners in exactly the same way the U.S. gov't gave their citizens a stimulus check?? why invest trillions of dollars in a war when you could have done some spectacular things for the U.S. of A.?????
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I hated the idea of the bailout from the first time I heard it and now it just brings talk of more. Rather than the bailout, I am all for a homeowner stimulus, but perhaps different from your idea. My idea is not to reward those alone that made bad decisions and over stretched their ability to pay, but to give the money to every homeowner, the money to be applied directly to the mortgage in monthly increments to cover half the payment total, that money to then be repaid to the government with interest by the lending institutions over five years. With about 128 million homes, the 700 billion dollars would benefit each about $5500.

Problem is, those that never had the ability to pay, would still be foreclosed eventually. It would help others that found themselves in a financial crunch due to job loss or whatever. It would help me by paying off a little more of my mortgage on a house that is now worth perhaps 75% of what I bought it for.

I would absolutely have a problem just giving the money to the foolish; those that should never have qualified for loans or those that bought multiple houses, looking to flip them for a quick profit off their fellow man. Why would I want to subsidize those people when my own son & daughter have yet to afford houses of their own?

As far as the war, I have to support our troops that are there, however, the exit strategy was all wrong. Mothers Big Green Machine does one thing well; kick butt. My exit strategy was to enter on one side of the country and exit on another; no leaving our guys there to play policeman and targets. Just leave a sign upon leaving; straighten up or we will be back with attitude.

Did anyone mention that we have lost fewer troops in Iraq this year than have been murdered in Chicago? Or so I have read.

Yes, we could do great things with the money we spend abroad.
 
Caddyshk said:
Another concept to consider - a new reality game show; call it "Death Race 2008" where we could release at predetermined locations and intervals; prisoners, welfare recipients, socialists, illegals and other non-conformists to our ideology and chase them down in our Z's for prizes and money :driving:
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Wouldn't work. We'll get sued for emotional distress and they'll take our Z's!. :driving: :rofl:
 
I could cope with that. My Dad always told me: "...before there were lawyers, there were honest people." A tonne of truth in all that.
 
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