auto owners.

[GuidoK]

0 to X times published are generally with a test driver and harsh flat changes - something the average owner wouldn't be able to replicate every time.
In the Auto it is a simple case of hit the right hand pedal and hang on. The box will change as fast as it can every time. It never fluffs a change.

If there's not enough grip the auto will also struggle.
If its the speed at which it changes gear, an auto (especially from the e85 generation) will be easily to beat. The difference between the 3.0i auto and manual in the 0-62 sprint is 0,6 sec, which is an age if that's only the shift time.
Certainly a 1-2 shift can be done fairly easy in 0,2 sec, Ive timed it. It's not that a test driver can shift 0,3 seconds faster...
The real dilemma comes in on a track or a 60-120 acceleration, where an auto box struggles with the extra loss of the system (and some extra weight). Modern auto's have extra gears to overcome this, but that shows that an auto will always have less efficiency with similar gears and thus be slower. A heavier car with more mechanical drag is slower.
If you wanna be quick at the trafficlight sprit, get a quick awd car. In real life situations where traction never is 100% it will smoke any Z, especially if you get above 250bhp or thereabout.

 

[mr wilks]

If you wanna be quick at the trafficlight sprit, get a quick awd car. In real life situations where traction never is 100% it will smoke any Z, especially if you get above 250bhp or thereabout.

Dead right there & especially so a DSG the 2 V6 TT MK1s i had ( 250bhp DSG) were off the line blindingly quick shame they were numb in the bends

 

[cj10jeeper]

0 to X times published are generally with a test driver and harsh flat changes - something the average owner wouldn't be able to replicate every time.
In the Auto it is a simple case of hit the right hand pedal and hang on. The box will change as fast as it can every time. It never fluffs a change.

If there's not enough grip the auto will also struggle.
If its the speed at which it changes gear, an auto (especially from the e85 generation) will be easily to beat. The difference between the 3.0i auto and manual in the 0-62 sprint is 0,6 sec, which is an age if that's only the shift time.
Certainly a 1-2 shift can be done fairly easy in 0,2 sec, Ive timed it. It's not that a test driver can shift 0,3 seconds faster...
The real dilemma comes in on a track or a 60-120 acceleration, where an auto box struggles with the extra loss of the system (and some extra weight). Modern auto's have extra gears to overcome this, but that shows that an auto will always have less efficiency with similar gears and thus be slower. A heavier car with more mechanical drag is slower.
If you wanna be quick at the trafficlight sprit, get a quick awd car. In real life situations where traction never is 100% it will smoke any Z, especially if you get above 250bhp or thereabout.

To be correct 0-62 times for the 3.0 are 5.9 & 6.2 prefacelift and facelift 5.7 & 6.0. Differences of 0.3, not the 0.6 you quote
All times taken from the year related manufactures brochures of 2003 & 2008

I agree with Ronk re figures being obtained by test drivers. They do so with every trick they can use Vs auto is slot in sport mode, push and go. No possibility of bogging, fluffing a change or wheelspin (given all such times are on dry, good surfaces)

On a good day with a good driver the manual will always be faster, by a whisker. Multiple times and multiple starts mistakes will happen. Even Lewis sometimes struggles to get off the line with a clutch

As an aside my meagre diesel Jag auto leaves them all trailing as it's about torque to get to 60 and 700nm does it nicely

 

[GuidoK]

To be correct 0-62 times for the 3.0 are 5.9 & 6.2 prefacelift and facelift 5.7 & 6.0. Differences of 0.3, not the 0.6 you quote
All times taken from the year related manufactures brochures of 2003 & 2008

I agree with Ronk re figures being obtained by test drivers.

Sorry yes you're right, its 0,3 for prefl also.
However I dont agree that only a test driver can achieve that. I've measured shift times myself, and I can shift 0,2 sec for a sequential gear (1-2) and 0,3 sec of a non seq downshift (of example 5-3), and that is including the clutch operation. Ive measured it (video&counting frames). And I am by no means a 'test driver', I'm a normal person with a keen interest. If a test driver would be a faster shifter, He'd be shifting in negative time :roll:
So that shows that you can be faster. Obviously you have to know how to shift of course.

The only part of the acceleration an auto can be faster is the initial jump of the line, where the torque converter acts as a torque multiplier. But that is until a certain rpm, and of course there has to be enough grip (which is biggest problem).
You can feel until which point the torque converter acts as a multiplier; there is a point where the stator switches direction, and that is the point where theoretical amplification stops (the coupling point, usually around 1500rpm or so). The actual point is earlier, because the torque converter has about 10% loss (another point why an automatic is slower), and this is all before torque converter lockup is achieved (if there is any). This might go a bit far for the non tech person to understand though as automatics and torque converters are quite complex.
Automatics that equal or surpass manuals can only do that if they're equipped with extra gears.

And as for the auto vs manual debate that still leaves out that the autobox is heavier and has slightly less efficiency per definition.
Whether you'll notice that during driving... well... that depends on what type of driving you do. Most people praise cars like lotus for being light and not for being heavy, so there is more than 1 advantage which is hardly ever addressed because it doesnt show in performance stats, but there is more than just traffic light sprints imho (if there isnt, buy a 4wd car...)

 

[MACK]

If you wanna be quick at the trafficlight sprit, get a quick awd car. In real life situations where traction never is 100% it will smoke any Z, especially if you get above 250bhp or thereabout.

Dead right there & especially so a DSG the 2 V6 TT MK1s i had ( 250bhp DSG) were off the line blindingly quick shame they were numb in the bends

I remember mine, not great to drive but made a great sound though and at the time the exterior and interior looked awesome!

 

[Ducklakeview]

My thoughts?

"Real world" and in the dry, a 3.0 auto can get off the line like a scalded cat, certainly a lot quicker than the majority of FWD "sporty stuff" out there. It may get reigned in, say once you get to 40-50mph by some of the more powerful stuff, likes of the 250bhp hot hatch brigade, BUT by then, you have thoroughly embarrassed "matey" and his buddies

I get immense satisfaction from leaving "matey" for dead off the line in the "traffic light grand prix" especially after he's sat "giving you the eye" for 60 seconds, and blipping the throttle in his Focus ST/Golf Gti/Seat Leon Cupra etc... Sure, he may have more power, but getting it down, and launching it off the line takes skill, and IMO, the auto flatters in that respect. Anyway, by the time I've got to 50, it's normally time to brake for the next set of lights, and I normally find that they give up and potter off the line.

Mike

 

[Steve84N]

I'm with GuidoK, a lot of the comments seem to imply that it's just too hard to drive a manual well. Come on, it's not really is it? I can't recall ever having a problem getting off the line quickly, the only thing that can hinder is the TC in its fully on state. Switching to DSC makes a marked difference, albeit I now have an LSD too... :evil:

 

[jimmybell]

My thoughts?
I get immense satisfaction from leaving "matey" for dead off the line in the "traffic light grand prix" especially after he's sat "giving you the eye" for 60 seconds, and blipping the throttle in his Focus ST/Golf Gti/Seat Leon Cupra etc... Sure, he may have more power, but getting it down, and launching it off the line takes skill, and IMO, the auto flatters in that respect. Anyway, by the time I've got to 50, it's normally time to brake for the next set of lights, and I normally find that they give up and potter off the line.
Mike

Sadly - Focus ST/Golf GTI and Seat Leon's are no longer the hot hatches they once were - now superceeded by the 'hyper hatch', which will destroy any Z off any line and well into illegal speeds (RS3/A45/etc). AWD grip, superior HP, turbo'd so much more torque and shove at the low end.

And i guess to be relevant - they're dual clutch boxes too. near seemless gearchange, truely some of the fastest weapons across british B-road countryside, very hard to keep up with in most cars (upto and including some 'super cars')

 

[Ducklakeview]

My thoughts?
I get immense satisfaction from leaving "matey" for dead off the line in the "traffic light grand prix" especially after he's sat "giving you the eye" for 60 seconds, and blipping the throttle in his Focus ST/Golf Gti/Seat Leon Cupra etc... Sure, he may have more power, but getting it down, and launching it off the line takes skill, and IMO, the auto flatters in that respect. Anyway, by the time I've got to 50, it's normally time to brake for the next set of lights, and I normally find that they give up and potter off the line.
Mike

Sadly - Focus ST/Golf GTI and Seat Leon's are no longer the hot hatches they once were - now superceeded by the 'hyper hatch', which will destroy any Z off any line and well into illegal speeds (RS3/A45/etc). AWD grip, superior HP, turbo'd so much more torque and shove at the low end.

And i guess to be relevant - they're dual clutch boxes too. near seemless gearchange, truely some of the fastest weapons across british B-road countryside, very hard to keep up with in most cars (upto and including some 'super cars')

Which is why I mentioned the Focus/Golf/Seat. Obviously the 3.0i Zed is getting on now, BUT I believe it can still hold it's own, and more against what were deemed to be "the business" a few years ago. Obv, once you start talking AWD and 300bhp, then even a new 35is is going to get blown away..

Mike

 

[STUBOY2UK]

In a drag race on a track, revving on the start line and flat shifting, the manual will be 0.3 seconds quicker to 62mph, the BMW figures show this.

In a real-world drag race where the drivers have their foot on the brake at the start, that 0.3 seconds will be eaten up by the manual driver having to build revs and release the clutch. Take away the flat shifts as well because you don't want to destroy the car and the automatic will win that race pretty much 10 times out of 10.

 

[jimmybell]

You start a drag race with your foot on the brake?

 

[Ducklakeview]

You start a drag race with your foot on the brake?

In an auto, that can be beneficial - Left foot on brake as lights go amber, build revs to 1,750-2,000, and let the brake go as you floor the throttle...

Mike

 

[ronk]

Have the later Auto E89 s got launch control?
I know our 335xd has and it's a real hoot - it s like being sat in a catapult sling!

 

[mr wilks]

I'm with GuidoK, a lot of the comments seem to imply that it's just too hard to drive a manual well. Come on, it's not really is it? I can't recall ever having a problem getting off the line quickly, the only thing that can hinder is the TC in its fully on state. Switching to DSC makes a marked difference, albeit I now have an LSD too... :evil:

Not all clutches & gearboxes are alike though :wink: try a swift , smooth & rapid start with a ZM that doesn't involve much noise & strange smells :roll: slick they aint , by comparison my sons Scirocco R manual just rips away smooth as you like

 

[jimmybell]

You start a drag race with your foot on the brake?

In an auto, that can be beneficial - Left foot on brake as lights go amber, build revs to 1,750-2,000, and let the brake go as you floor the throttle...

Mike

Sure, but the example was in a manual you'd have to move your foot to the accelerator..

Effectively, why are we debating if an old style autobox is faster than a manual?

even BMW's figures highlight how much slower it is.

The only time it might be faster is if it's more efficient/easier at changing gear more often, thus you may naturally get into the right RPM range more often than you would if you were being lazy in a manual (real world driving here..).

 

[Ducklakeview]

You start a drag race with your foot on the brake?

In an auto, that can be beneficial - Left foot on brake as lights go amber, build revs to 1,750-2,000, and let the brake go as you floor the throttle...

Mike

Sure, but the example was in a manual you'd have to move your foot to the accelerator..

Effectively, why are we debating if an old style autobox is faster than a manual?

even BMW's figures highlight how much slower it is.

The only time it might be faster is if it's more efficient/easier at changing gear more often, thus you may naturally get into the right RPM range more often than you would if you were being lazy in a manual (real world driving here..).

Even the "old" ZF 5-HP in the E85 changes gear quicker than any driver can, and with much less strain on the drivetrain than "snatching" the next gear as fast as possible in a manual. The difference in acceleration is due mainly to the fact that a torque converter provides a "liquid coupling" rather than the pure mechanical drive from a manual, however as I said earlier, the torque multiplication effect of this means you actually get more torque to the rear wheels for a given engine RPM when taking off, hence the "shove in the back" feeling in the auto.

Mike

 

[RedLine]

It took me a little while to realise just how quick my 3.0Si Auto was when pulling away. My first auto ever so its difficult to compare on experience.
Yes its possible to be quicker in a manual but not time and time again for all but the very skilled, for most probably not even 2 out of 10.

I know of a set of lights where is great fun to gently and quietly pull up in the left hand lane of three at a traffic island all leading onto a motorway. All the hot hatches etc queueing in the middle and right hand lane expecting to fight their way to the front where three lanes run into two and beat you into the bargain.
When the lights change floor the loud pedal and I've never been close to being overtaken by the wannabes. Always left in the mirror.

The trick is that after about 1/2 mile there's a bend and an area on the right where theres usually one of the local constabulary hiding out of sight. Having reached the speed limit just ease off and let the others race by occasionally to be greeted by blue lights. Ethical - probably not, but great fun. Of course there are faster cars about. Nearly always 1:0 though and sometimes 2:0!

 

[Johnbmwz4]

My 3.5i DCT has launch control, or at least it says it has in the handbook. Never used it though, I had an auto 3.0 E85 before the 3.5 DCT and it was rapid from standstill beating anything I tried at traffic lights. It felt faster than my E89 at setting off but I think that's because it feels like a much smaller car and is much lighter. I'm on my 4th auto car and love them. I drive a manual transit through the day and get totally fed up changing gears when stuck in traffic etc . Autos have come on a lot from the 80s and there are a lot more on the road now than that era too

 

[NickDE]

It took me a little while to realise just how quick my 3.0Si Auto was when pulling away. My first auto ever so its difficult to compare on experience.
Yes its possible to be quicker in a manual but not time and time again for all but the very skilled, for most probably not even 2 out of 10.

I know of a set of lights where is great fun to gently and quietly pull up in the left hand lane of three at a traffic island all leading onto a motorway. All the hot hatches etc queueing in the middle and right hand lane expecting to fight their way to the front where three lanes run into two and beat you into the bargain.
When the lights change floor the loud pedal and I've never been close to being overtaken by the wannabes. Always left in the mirror.

The trick is that after about 1/2 mile there's a bend and an area on the right where theres usually one of the local constabulary hiding out of sight. Having reached the speed limit just ease off and let the others race by occasionally to be greeted by blue lights. Ethical - probably not, but great fun. Of course there are faster cars about. Nearly always 1:0 though and sometimes 2:0!

Totally unethical and evil.

 

[ronk]

My 3.5i DCT has launch control, or at least it says it has in the handbook. Never used it though, I had an auto 3.0 E85 before the 3.5 DCT and it was rapid from standstill beating anything I tried at traffic lights. It felt faster than my E89 at setting off but I think that's because it feels like a much smaller car and is much lighter. I'm on my 4th auto car and love them. I drive a manual transit through the day and get totally fed up changing gears when stuck in traffic etc . Autos have come on a lot from the 80s and there are a lot more on the road now than that era too

If you haven't tried it - then you must use it once at least - you will be amazed! Take a tip tho, find a straight and quiet bit of road. The acceleration feels like one big relentless push.
The only reason I haven't used it on my car is it's only done 1k before going into hibernation.

I note your comments re 80's Autos ! 3 speed Borg Warner boxes - awful in the extreme. If auto boxes were like that now I would not have one.

I don't think many auto users return to a manual.