Anyone else there with a car configured like mine, BMW won't tell me :(
- Thread starter Valor1
- Start date
- Status
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
By way of background, I drove a 2500M in college. I developed an engine configuration while still in college that Peter Wheeler rather liked. So much so he flew me to Blackpool where I spent several weeks at the factory developing this engine which found its way into a SEAC and rather enjoying the 390 they lent me. Since we're on your side of the pond now I wonder how many folks know what I'm talking about here? I also had the rare pleasure of driving a Griffith (RHD) as a daily driver here in LA for a while as well.
My view is a global one....whether it was acquiring a Lamborghini Islero S and driving it through Germany and Austria for three weeks roadtripping mid-winter or a Maserati Ghibli Spider top down through Europe in the spring or an E36 AC Schitzer Evo M3, I'd say I'd know a thing or two about cars and perspectives on both sides of the pond.
The irony here is people are all off point with their arguments. My inquiry was not about how valuable monetarily my car is due to its rare configuration (Interior and exterior color, engine and gearbox), but simply how many cars like mine were built.
Where I live Aventadors and 458s are everywhere. Porsche Turbos are like taxicabs. Yet I have seen zero red Z4s here and I have had people comment on how pretty is car is and say they've never seen one before.
Heck, I paid $2000 to ship the thing from Boston to the West Coast. Why? Because it was rare.
Guilty as charged. Yes, I like to drive something different. So BMW makes around 2 million cars a year and over a nine year period they made 116k Z4s of all varieties and 16 or so million cars overall? Am I the only one seeing the math here? Last year GM produced nearly 41,000 Corvettes. As far as mass producers of automobiles go (BMW, Audi, Mazda, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Fiat, etc.) the Z4 is rare.
Now if folks want to get their panties in a pinch here that's fine. Their raining on their own parade. Is it their point that the E89 N54 Z4 is nothing special? Well then so be it. I have other cars in my garage that are.
The irony here is I could be the car snob and say how I have cars sitting in museums, cars featured in magazines, etc., and that the E89 Z4 N54 is the poorman's Z8 wannabe car. Yet not withstanding my 474 hp Z8 or other cars I don't berate the Z4. I think properly configured it's a performance bargain and, particularly from the side profile view, an stunning little car. I remember when my 993 Twin Turbo Porsche made 400 hp and how that was so amazing in its day (the poor man's 959).
Yet this little N54 motor can reliably and cheaply churn out 500 hp! While getting 25 mpg on the freeway?
That's a cool car in my book and as it is not as rare say as an 8C Spider or 550 Barchetta, it can be used and enjoyed without worry. (Putting the top on the Barchetta is a bitch and its too bad the 8C didn't come with a stick but its noise makes up for it.)
So if folks here want to berate their cars and prefer to think of them like any consumer appliance, so be it.
My inquiry was NOT about my car being a collector car.
I simply asked how many cars were made like mine....and no, not with fifty options but quite simply:
1. Crimson red
2. Exclusive Extended Ivory Leather
3. N54 Motor
4. Six speed manual gearbox.
Everyone getting upset about value and collectability is engaging in a conversation not started by me nor one that I'm interested in.
Too bad the original question remains unanswered.
Valor1 said:
They why base your factual points and arguments on the NA market and not the european or global market (you're the one coming up with these insignificant figures.).
Yes a z4 is rare in the sense that a boxster is even rarer.
Aventadors may be everywere where you live, but fact is that there are over 25 times more e89s build. They must be all cramped up in your neighbourhood. But besides that, that doesnt change how rare it is aka how much were made.
As for rarity, an alfa 166 is rarer than the e89, produced in less numbers (sub100k). And literally worth sh#t, you can buy one for under £1000 :roll:
Buy one and I guarantee you, you'll be the only one in your neighbourhood driving one :rofl:
For sure something different, just the way you like to drive it
oke: The e89 is as special as it is special to the owner. Its 'historically' not a special in the sense car that set the bar in the enthousiasts world for being special in its segment. Its on par with the boxster or slk (or audi TT even for that matter), competing in the same market (some porsche owners may cringe now...). For the e89 to surpass that 'level of specialness' you'd at least had to get a special edition. There is for instance a e89 35is mille miglia. THATS a special car. :driving:
If you wanted something rare and special from bmw, you should have bought the z4m coupe. Thats a much rarer car that will be remembered in the future by enthousiasts, press and marketplaces as 'that awesome quirky car that set the bar when nobody noticed' just like the s54 m coupe now has that status in the US (less in europe as we also got the s50b32 m coupe in larger numbers). In the US the z4m coupe is still affordable, in mainland europe already on the rise for a year or 2 (although money is no object for you as I understand).
What colour it has is insignificant. some like red, others like blue or black.
In the future people will care less for the twin turbo n54, but they will adore the s54 with its motorsport pedigree (they already do, even if an n54 with a $700 tune/downpipe outperforms most tuned s54's all day long).
So the e89 is imho only special (on a scale that surpasses the owners opinion
) if you have a special edition (like the mille miglia), or if you do something special to it (and I dont mean just a jb4 and downpipe, I set the bar a bit higher than that....)A stock E89 35i in any config is just as special as say the e85 z4 3.0i was at its introduction or the z3 2.8 was at its introduction as those are its predecessors. Maybe even more nuanced... the e89 3.5i also had its more expensive/powerful 35is sister, so that makes it slightly positioned under the equivalent e85 z4 3.0i and z3 2.8 was at their introduction (but I forgive the 3.5i for lacking its temporary 35hp overboost function, for that you had the possibility to opt for a manual and all the visual styling stuff could also be bought in an additional packeage).
Another interesting buy will be the e60 m5 with manual. You know what, buy an e60 m5 manual and an european e60 m5 touring, and swap the manual in the touring. That's a project car that can shine in a magazine in 10 years time.
GuidoK said:Valor1 said:
They why base your factual points and arguments on the NA market and not the european or global market (you're the one coming up with these insignificant figures.).
Yes a z4 is rare in the sense that a boxster is even rarer.
Aventadors may be everywere where you live, but fact is that there are over 25 times more e89s build. They must be all cramped up in your neighbourhood. But besides that, that doesnt change how rare it is aka how much were made.
As for rarity, an alfa 166 is rarer than the e89, produced in less numbers (sub100k). And literally worth sh#t, you can buy one for under £1000 :roll:
Buy one and I guarantee you, you'll be the only one in your neighbourhood driving one :rofl:
For sure something different, just the way you like to drive it
The e89 is as special as it is special to the owner. Its 'historically' not a special in the sense car that set the bar in the enthousiasts world for being special in its segment. Its on par with the boxster or slk (or audi TT even for that matter), competing in the same market (some porsche owners may cringe now...). For the e89 to surpass that 'level of specialness' you'd at least had to get a special edition. There is for instance a e89 35is mille miglia. THATS a special car. :driving:
If you wanted something rare and special from bmw, you should have bought the z4m coupe. Thats a much rarer car that will be remembered in the future by enthousiasts, press and marketplaces as 'that awesome quirky car that set the bar when nobody noticed' just like the s54 m coupe now has that status in the US (less in europe as we also got the s50b32 m coupe in larger numbers). In the US the z4m coupe is still affordable, in mainland europe already on the rise for a year or 2 (although money is no object for you as I understand).
What colour it has is insignificant. some like red, others like blue or black.
In the future people will care less for the twin turbo n54, but they will adore the s54 with its motorsport pedigree (they already do, even if an n54 with a $700 tune/downpipe outperforms most tuned s54's all day long).
So the e89 is imho only special (on a scale that surpasses the owners opinion
A stock E89 35i in any config is just as special as say the e85 z4 3.0i was at its introduction or the z3 2.8 was at its introduction as those are its predecessors. Maybe even more nuanced... the e89 3.5i also had its more expensive/powerful 35is sister, so that makes it slightly positioned under the equivalent e85 z4 3.0i and z3 2.8 was at their introduction (but I forgive the 3.5i for lacking its temporary 35hp overboost function, for that you had the possibility to opt for a manual and all the visual styling stuff could also be bought in an additional packeage).
Another interesting buy will be the e60 m5 with manual. You know what, buy an e60 m5 manual and an european e60 m5 touring, and swap the manual in the touring. That's a project car that can shine in a magazine in 10 years time.
Let me reiterate....the inquiry by this thread was simply to find out how many other cars are out there like mine: Crimson red with the exclusive ivory leather interior an N54 motor and a manual gearbox. That's it. That's all I was asking. I was not asking about "collectability." I am a collector and I'll use my own judgment on that issue.
So that's ALL I was asking and I never said the Z4 is the next XKSS.
So this conversation has nothing to do with my inquiry.
That said, and with all due respect, are you a collector? Are you speaking from personal experience or what you believe to be true?
First off comparing the Alfa 166 (a car never sold in the US) is nonsensical for many reasons. For instance, a basic rule is most collectible cars, including Ferraris, have just two door and go one further, top collector cars have just two seats. A two seat Ferrari is always more collectible than a four seat Ferrari. There are other factors as well which I've not the time to go into.
The Millie Miglia edition is indeed rare. I've never seen one. But funny thing is, truth be told, there is nothing special about it really above and beyond what was discussed here as my original (and only) question: How rare based on color options (and configuration). Reading about the Millie Miglia car there is nothing mechanically special about it. No more power, it does not weigh less, heck it doesn't even have special lightweight wheels. What makes it "special"? It's exterior color and interior. Oh, and it has a tacky red badge on it. Plus, unlike Porsche with its Spyder and 911 R, BMW did the opposite....offering the car only with an automatic gearbox and no manual gearbox.
Now, they say there are 99 of these cars. Again I pose my original question: I wonder how many crimson red/exclusive ivory leather N54 manual gearbox cars did BMW produce.....could be fewer than their Mille Miglia Edition. Yes, a cool car to have, no doubt, but it's not like a Boxster Spyder or 911 R compared to a standard Boxster. It is purely cosmetic with an auto box and tacky red badges.
Why do you think the E89 is less rare than a Boxster? By my math and from what I've read Porsche has produced somewhere near 1 million Boxsters. If not yet, there will soon be 10 Boxsters for every one E89. There are far more Boxster S cars than there are N54 Z4.
If you believe all Z4 are the same regardless of engine than you don't appreciate the market. That's like saying a 427 Corvette is the same as a 350 Corvette. They may look the same on the outside but a 427 is not the same. But here it is even worse. You can have the Z4 in a four banger econo version.
Do you have a Z4 with the N54 motor?
Guys who are discounting it here are really unaware of the N54 motor's capabilities and status. Here's a good read to get up to basic speed: "The N54 was BMW's Iconic Tuner Engine."
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2016/5/2/Engines-Exposed-The-N54-Was-BMW-s-Iconic-Tuner-Engine-7733074/
I would also disagree regarding the Sdrive35i versus Sdrive35is. If you follow the market you realize when Porsche introduced special cars recently they were "stick only" (Spyder and 911 R). Do you know what happened to those cars? All sold and surprise? They are now worth more than their MSRP as they go up in value.
Have you priced a 430 Ferrari lately? See how much more a stick costs than a paddle shift car?
Fact, the Sdrive35i manual gearbox car weighs less than the Sdrive35is. Fact, the Sdrive35i with a tune can make far more power than the Sdrive35is. For a driver's experience, a stick is more engaging than an automatic and as sticks became ever more rare they will command a premium.
How many stick shift two seat roadsters with an easy 500 hp possibility exists in this Z4 price range?
Valor, did you read what you wrote back to yourself?
You are berating the fact that the Mille Miglia car is nothing special as it has no extra power etc and has tacky badges but was made in limited numbers making it a maximum amount of cars made. Nobody could order an extra one even if they wanted one.
Your car is basically a standard car, not top spec, in a colour that you dont think there are many of, but dont know.
Anybody could order a car like yours, and probably have, and therefor your car is not as special as the Mille Miglia one.
A similar thing though has happened on a bike forum that I am on where there was a limited run of a bike.
Interested parties were put on a waiting list and there were limited numbers made.
This was also done for a second year where the limited run ran again making the limited number of bikes not so limited as people first thought.
Now that there are quite a few of these limited bikes around that are all the same colour scheme, people who ordered the lesser specced model possibly have a bike that is rarer than the limited run bikes.
You are berating the fact that the Mille Miglia car is nothing special as it has no extra power etc and has tacky badges but was made in limited numbers making it a maximum amount of cars made. Nobody could order an extra one even if they wanted one.
Your car is basically a standard car, not top spec, in a colour that you dont think there are many of, but dont know.
Anybody could order a car like yours, and probably have, and therefor your car is not as special as the Mille Miglia one.
A similar thing though has happened on a bike forum that I am on where there was a limited run of a bike.
Interested parties were put on a waiting list and there were limited numbers made.
This was also done for a second year where the limited run ran again making the limited number of bikes not so limited as people first thought.
Now that there are quite a few of these limited bikes around that are all the same colour scheme, people who ordered the lesser specced model possibly have a bike that is rarer than the limited run bikes.
That was indeed all you were asking.Valor1 said:
However, it was not all you were saying
oke: No indeed, this conversation has everything to do with your verbal (well textual) outings.
No, I am a driver/tinkerer. with all due respect.
I wasnt saying anything about collectable, I was saying something about the rarity. You were the one that coupled the concept of rarity to amount of specialness. The alfa only proves that there is no such thing.
My outing was that the mille miglia is probably as special as the e89 gets without tinkering yourself. That you dont think its special and that many porsche models are far more special only says something about the specialness of the e89. Half the forum is trying to get that into your mind for 8 pages now....
What makes the millle miglia special is I think the fact that there are so few e89 special editions...
Unlike from what porsche does
oke: (or more exotic brands... sometimes I even get the impression that there are more special editions than cars produced :rofl: )Maybe compare how many boxsters were made cq. sold in the years that the e89 was made?!? I think i wrote that too? I couldnt think anyone would not understand that even when not read properly.... I was wrong, and you amaize me....
Let me quote myself:
Yep....quite clear to me :roll:GuidoK said:
BTW I base these numbers on the carsalesdatabase.com (I think I already wrote that), because I of course havent counted these numbers myself. Carsalesdatabase has very extensive data globally. Ive compared these numbers with other data I could find (for example in the netherlands you can find per brand per model how much is sold each month, something you cant find in carsalesdatabase, but if you add it all up, carsalesdatabase seems to be quite accurate with these numbers and also with numbers collected from statements of manufactureres etc. So its a really interesting site if you want to do some statistics. (only sales numbers in china/asia are hard to get by; carsalesdatabase has them, but crossreferencing them with other data is difficult because there's usually not that much other data).
I'm sorry... did I say that anywhere? where exactly did I say that they are all the same
Ahh yes.... just like the e30 m3 came in a four banger.... the horror. blegh... who wants a four banger.... nobody right?
oke: No, why?
True. Nobody here says that manual gearboxes are worse than automatics or dual clutch boxes. You try to make a point here that nobody disputes.
Sorry... false. the 35i and 35is engines are technically 100% the same.
The only difference is that the ecu in the 35is allows for a brief moment an overboost, so its all in the tune. You can tune that also in the 35i if you want (well not as user but as tuner). Or that it can have overboost all the time (a tuners knowledge/imagination is his limit so to say). But as far as hardware goes, the engines are exactly the same. I've studied the ETK with quite detail for that because it's often said (mostly by 35is owners who think their engine is better, so the other way around)
Backbox/exhaust end is different because the tailpipes are located differently because of the different rear bumper.
If you dont agree? Show me one internal engine part that has a different partnumber between the engines and we'll talk again. :wink:
What made you think this woud be BTW? Just curious.
Valor1 said:
Really? I'd have said that unless you have a Brummy accent and your name is John Eales or Graham Nash you might be 'exaggerating' just a little :lol:
Anyway, unfortunately nobody can answer your question but were all petrol heads and would love to see the 'collection'
:worthless:
The way this thread devellops is a bit johnny essexesque.....
About the specialty of cars..... imho not important, the only thing that counts is how special it is to the owner.
Unless you're in the trade of course but than still you look at how special it will be to the future owner cause he's paying :wink:
About the specialty of cars..... imho not important, the only thing that counts is how special it is to the owner.
Unless you're in the trade of course but than still you look at how special it will be to the future owner cause he's paying :wink:
Hi, could the difference between potential outputs of 35i/35is cars be attributable to the manual box of the 35i being able to withstand a higher torque figure?
Im sure I've read the dct box is the Achilles heel when it comes to tuning the n54 engine? :?
Rob
Im sure I've read the dct box is the Achilles heel when it comes to tuning the n54 engine? :?
Rob
Valor1 said:GuidoK said:Valor1 said:
They why base your factual points and arguments on the NA market and not the european or global market (you're the one coming up with these insignificant figures.).
Yes a z4 is rare in the sense that a boxster is even rarer.
Aventadors may be everywere where you live, but fact is that there are over 25 times more e89s build. They must be all cramped up in your neighbourhood. But besides that, that doesnt change how rare it is aka how much were made.
As for rarity, an alfa 166 is rarer than the e89, produced in less numbers (sub100k). And literally worth sh#t, you can buy one for under £1000 :roll:
Buy one and I guarantee you, you'll be the only one in your neighbourhood driving one :rofl:
For sure something different, just the way you like to drive it
The e89 is as special as it is special to the owner. Its 'historically' not a special in the sense car that set the bar in the enthousiasts world for being special in its segment. Its on par with the boxster or slk (or audi TT even for that matter), competing in the same market (some porsche owners may cringe now...). For the e89 to surpass that 'level of specialness' you'd at least had to get a special edition. There is for instance a e89 35is mille miglia. THATS a special car. :driving:
If you wanted something rare and special from bmw, you should have bought the z4m coupe. Thats a much rarer car that will be remembered in the future by enthousiasts, press and marketplaces as 'that awesome quirky car that set the bar when nobody noticed' just like the s54 m coupe now has that status in the US (less in europe as we also got the s50b32 m coupe in larger numbers). In the US the z4m coupe is still affordable, in mainland europe already on the rise for a year or 2 (although money is no object for you as I understand).
What colour it has is insignificant. some like red, others like blue or black.
In the future people will care less for the twin turbo n54, but they will adore the s54 with its motorsport pedigree (they already do, even if an n54 with a $700 tune/downpipe outperforms most tuned s54's all day long).
So the e89 is imho only special (on a scale that surpasses the owners opinion
A stock E89 35i in any config is just as special as say the e85 z4 3.0i was at its introduction or the z3 2.8 was at its introduction as those are its predecessors. Maybe even more nuanced... the e89 3.5i also had its more expensive/powerful 35is sister, so that makes it slightly positioned under the equivalent e85 z4 3.0i and z3 2.8 was at their introduction (but I forgive the 3.5i for lacking its temporary 35hp overboost function, for that you had the possibility to opt for a manual and all the visual styling stuff could also be bought in an additional packeage).
Another interesting buy will be the e60 m5 with manual. You know what, buy an e60 m5 manual and an european e60 m5 touring, and swap the manual in the touring. That's a project car that can shine in a magazine in 10 years time.
Let me reiterate....the inquiry by this thread was simply to find out how many other cars are out there like mine: Crimson red with the exclusive ivory leather interior an N54 motor and a manual gearbox. That's it. That's all I was asking. I was not asking about "collectability." I am a collector and I'll use my own judgment on that issue.
So that's ALL I was asking and I never said the Z4 is the next XKSS.
So this conversation has nothing to do with my inquiry.
None.
Is that what you want to hear? Your car is unique.
Valor1 said:
Per your own comments, people use their own judgement to buy what they own or like.
Valor1 said:
With all due respect. It's not long since you were mentioning the E89 in the same breath as GTOs and 275 GTB/4s
Valor1 said:
Is that the case, or is it more a question of demographic. 365/412/456/612 etc have all moved significantly upwards. It is just by virtue of what the manufacturer makes. 911s of all ilks seem to be doing well, as many of those are 2+2. Your point is valid but it is not as binary as you imply.
Valor1 said:
Porsche have, frankly, been taking the piss with GT4 and 911R type models. Both, 991R in particular, difficult if not impossible to get hold of as investors and flippers drove the market up and people, not least with the deal or 918 buyers in the US, being given preferential treatment.
Valor1 said:
Again, your car is unique. Congrats.
Valor1 said:
It's tunable because it's turbocharged. The truly great BMW engines do not have turbochargers.
Valor1 said:
Again, Porsche being cynical and manipulative.
Valor1 said:
The latest generation of analogue cars was always going to be more sought after. Sales patterns at the time mean those cars are intrinsically rarer.
Valor1 said:
I'll be interested to see whether DTC/manual/SMG/auto prices to trend differently on models such as Z4s. The Z4 isn't an out and out driver's car, per se, and so I'm not so sure the delta will be huge.
Now, your car is unique. Yay you!
Smartbear said:
The statement was made about the potential power output of the engine.
As for the gearboxes, I dont know if its actually the gearbox that is the limiting factor. I suspect the wet dual clutch.
But the manual has a fairly standard 240mm bmw SAC clutch. These also have their limitations when torque rises to levels massive out of spec.
Especially if driven vigorously, like on a track or when setting a good time becomes important.
Both are upgradable, the wet clutch might be more expensive though.
So one way or the other, with both engines its not the tuning of power output thats the big hurdle.
Its all the other parts that need upgrading when you want to keep a balanced car (power/performance/driveability wise) thats takes a lot of work, money and time and is sometimes difficult. (and thats what makes or breaks a tuner car, not the power output, but is everything else up to par so that it drives accordingly to do the job it was ment to do)
...mumbles something about a turbocharged early 80's F1 engine so there are always exceptions to the ruleferry said:
- Status
Similar threads
