Another Rod Bearing Story
- Thread starter Polarbert
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AndyBeech said:
It might be exchange.
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-30291-11000431515-genuine-bmw-part/
https://www.schmiedmann.com/en/product/e448953-new?product=11-00-0-431-515
https://www.oemvwshop.com/11000431515-exchange-short-engine-p2922584/
It's the only z4m engine option still available from BMW:
http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E85/Europe/Z4_M3.2-S54/browse/engine/short_engine/
BTW the e46 m3 s54 is slightly cheaper: € 13.070 incl VAT, but it is a different partnumber, so maybe there are small differences.
But I think this is also exchange.
AndyBeech said:
But that is then not an engine from BMW. Sure those can be cheaper. And that is then with 3rd party warranty, not BMW warranty.
(and certainly not a new engine)
But anyway, it's not the price of rodbearings/vanos/headgasket imho. Still at least 100% off.
However if you have a spun conrod bearing it might be a good option.
Okay, some things to clear up here:
1. The engines are rebuilt engines, however Munich still has new engines (not many) which can be requested.
2. I’ve just checked with my BMW dealer and the price has gone up to £9k + VAT (I take back my earlier comment, as that applied to a price I was given last year).
3. The price is based on the notion that you return the original engine back to BMW.
4. BMW provide 2 years warranty on the new engine as per EU law, but it must be installed by a VAT registered garage (does not need to be a BMW specialist or BMW themselves for that matter, however I would go with a specialist on this).
In light of this news, in the event of the engine going bang I would most probably opt for a rebuilt engine (by the likes of Reddish) iirc they offer this service for circa £4k.
I still maintain that these issues are blown out of proportion though! If the car is getting hammered on track then you may want to do all of the engine based ‘preventative maintenance’, however if you are just enjoying the car for a few years I’m not sure that it is really necessary. As mentioned vanos can be checked, as can the HG. Bearings can be done for peace of mind but I know of cars with 200,000+ miles on them with original engine internals…
It’s also a shame about the price increase on the engine, because I would rather pay £6k for a new engine with warranty from BMW than £4k for a rebuild, however this isn’t an option anymore. Anywho, hopefully I never have to exercise such option during my M ownership!
1. The engines are rebuilt engines, however Munich still has new engines (not many) which can be requested.
2. I’ve just checked with my BMW dealer and the price has gone up to £9k + VAT (I take back my earlier comment, as that applied to a price I was given last year).
3. The price is based on the notion that you return the original engine back to BMW.
4. BMW provide 2 years warranty on the new engine as per EU law, but it must be installed by a VAT registered garage (does not need to be a BMW specialist or BMW themselves for that matter, however I would go with a specialist on this).
In light of this news, in the event of the engine going bang I would most probably opt for a rebuilt engine (by the likes of Reddish) iirc they offer this service for circa £4k.
I still maintain that these issues are blown out of proportion though! If the car is getting hammered on track then you may want to do all of the engine based ‘preventative maintenance’, however if you are just enjoying the car for a few years I’m not sure that it is really necessary. As mentioned vanos can be checked, as can the HG. Bearings can be done for peace of mind but I know of cars with 200,000+ miles on them with original engine internals…
It’s also a shame about the price increase on the engine, because I would rather pay £6k for a new engine with warranty from BMW than £4k for a rebuild, however this isn’t an option anymore. Anywho, hopefully I never have to exercise such option during my M ownership!
What partnumber?R60BBA said:
That's probably for the work, not the parts. And if your engine goes bang you're lucky if you only need new crank/conrods. A conrod could also be sticking out your block (have seen it happen on S50b32's) and then ofcourse it's a new engine....
A friend of mine has had his s50b32 (z3m) blown up on the autobahn, not the track.
changing rodbearings every 50k miles costs about £1100. That's 2.2pence per mile on maintenance costs. That doesnt sound much to me for an engine that revs to 8k. why skimp on that?
Parts prices from BMW's not being made anymore have been going through the roof for some time now.R60BBA said:
I mean check this, this is the roofpump for an e89 (which is slightly more complicated than for the e85 but still):
Yes €2895 for a pump! (these are dealer prices)
You can ask my dealer those questions.
And noone’s skimping on maintenance here mate. I’m happy to do my shells every 75,000 - 100,000 miles for peace of mind, but I still maintain that the issue is blown out of proportion.
85,000 E46 M3s were built, can’t remember the stats for Z3Ms/Z4Ms nor do I know for the Wiesmann MF3’s either, but I would bet that the number of S54 engines suffering from rod bearing failure is less than 5%.
And noone’s skimping on maintenance here mate. I’m happy to do my shells every 75,000 - 100,000 miles for peace of mind, but I still maintain that the issue is blown out of proportion.
85,000 E46 M3s were built, can’t remember the stats for Z3Ms/Z4Ms nor do I know for the Wiesmann MF3’s either, but I would bet that the number of S54 engines suffering from rod bearing failure is less than 5%.
Yet the wear that you see is real.R60BBA said:
And maybe except for the s65/s85, I'm pretty sure you can't find more pics on the internet about worn (or for that matter spun!) rodbearings than on the s54.
So I think it's definately an issue, and if you look at it realistically, having an 8k revving engine, why skimp on that 2.2 pence per mile maintenance. It's not thàt much I think?
And folks who aren't afaid to get their hands dirty of course do this job themselves, hiring a carlift in your area
Then the costs are much lower :wink: :roll:
These are my rodbearings, but these are of an M54B30 engine. Similar mileage (well, little over 95k miles) but with about 30k miles supercharged to 380hp/465Nm (so +165Nm over stock)
Hardly any wear. except on the right side of cyl 6. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. either the conrod is a bit strange, or, more likely I think the crank is flexing a bit from that 55% extra torque. That's the point that is closest to the clutch, so that is where rotational torque on the crank is highest.
But overall a very different level of wear.
I did my rodbearings out of curiosity (a day's work and bearings/rodbolts/oilpanseal was less than €100). Not much known about supercharged engines and rodbearing wear.
But I think this gives a good comparison with a different bmw I6 engine with somewhat similar HP figures.
Mine in 2018 @ 78,000 miles.
However they were recalled in 2005 at 19,000 miles and so had done ~60,000 miles.
The mechanic who took them out said they had another 60,000+ miles in them.
End of the day mate, I’m not saying it isn’t an issue, because it potentially can be, however it is not as big of an issue as forums / certain garages (who have a financial interest) make it out to be. Otherwise most of the cars would have gone bang by now, seeing as they’re 15+ years old…but this isn’t the case…
However they were recalled in 2005 at 19,000 miles and so had done ~60,000 miles.
The mechanic who took them out said they had another 60,000+ miles in them.
End of the day mate, I’m not saying it isn’t an issue, because it potentially can be, however it is not as big of an issue as forums / certain garages (who have a financial interest) make it out to be. Otherwise most of the cars would have gone bang by now, seeing as they’re 15+ years old…but this isn’t the case…
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R60BBA said:
you have a picture where all bearings are shown?
That's a very subjective statement. How does one meaure "as big of an". It's something you feel, but what another might feel differently.
With a potential 10k cost figure, this is different than a lot of other jobs on parts that can be run until they fail. I see it as preventative maintenance. Just like putting in new oil. I mean, potentially you could use the oil for 20k miles. Maybe 30k or even 40k. But do you do that?
I refresh oil every 10k-12k miles I guess. But some refresh every 5k.
I don't really know what an oil+filterchange cost at the dealer, but I bet it's maybe more expensive if you do that every 5k miles per mile than those rodbearings are.
Anyway, the costs are well known so anyone kan make the judgement for themselves.
But what I usually don't see here, is replacing the oil pump piston regulator while having the rodbearings done. That's also a wear item, and by some claimed to be potentially related to worn rodbearings. In germany this is becoming more and more standard procedure among specialists. There they use DLC coated oil pump regulator pistons.
These are not average toyota's or volkswagens. So some extra maintenance is to be expected I think.
I mean if you have a ferrari and are required to do some extra £1200 maintenance after 50k miles... it would hardly show up on the bill.
But these high revving engines should be regarded as such, even though they have a bmw logo.
Some people get worn cams and followers in their s54. Talk about costs
BTW I looked at my rodbearings just to take a peek. Because not much is known on the m54, certainly not when supercharged >150% torque. Plastigauged the old and new bearings etc etc. To gain knowledge.
And now I know :wink:
Yes those look pretty good. However probably the best I've ever seen at that mileage. Quite different from the ones in this topic.
But if your's had minimal wear, it doesn't mean other bearings also don't have it.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I can find more pictures of bearings that have more wear than you can find pictures of bearings having less wear.
That says a lot.
But if your's had minimal wear, it doesn't mean other bearings also don't have it.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I can find more pictures of bearings that have more wear than you can find pictures of bearings having less wear.
That says a lot.
flimper said:An interesting video. Not sure mileage is the main thing to worry about, it's whether you can vouch for how the car has been driven
There are some people that also contribute the wear of the bearings partly to the worn oil pump regulator piston. So that not the correct pressure or constant pressure is a tributing aspect.
And a lot of worn bearings on the s50/s54 start out as spots in the middle. Those are imho typical for cavitation erosion.
Cavitation erosion in bearings:
http://substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=failures_of_engine_bearings_and_their_prevention
Of course the high g forces of high revs and large stroke contribute to cavitation, but also the right oil, and the right pressure.
No it doesn’t, because 70% of what you see on forums is people’s problems with their cars, which is not a true representative of ownership for the masses.GuidoK said:
The more important question here is - how many S54s do you know that have gone bang due to rod bearing failure?
I know of less than 5.
How many cars are in the classifieds each week but haven’t had the rod bearing service done - ample. But guess what - they’re not being sold as repairs are they.
GuidoK said:
I agree,way more people have had well worn bearings than those,that do look good.
Most have well worn bearings at between 50 & 80k miles.
Mine were done last year,at Redish,at my own choice,as preventative maintenance.
Redish said it would have been lucky to see 65k miles.
All my bottom rod bearing shells were in Very good condition,but all the top ones were nearly through,alot of copper showing,so glad I got it done.
I posted up last year,with pics of mine.
As said,more worn ones get posted when people choose to do them,than ones in good condition.
Why rusk a big bill for less than £1000 job,circa £700-£900, depending where u take it.