Advice on service for my M
- Thread starter Z4MO
- Start date
Beedub said:ZAMO thanks for that.... did he charge for any shims as inlet on 6 needs changing, its too tight... can't see any shims on the bill so hope he did that.
He's giving you all the right info however!!
Only one falls out of tolerance, so would be interesting to know how many were changed.
srhutch said:Beedub said:ZAMO thanks for that.... did he charge for any shims as inlet on 6 needs changing, its too tight... can't see any shims on the bill so hope he did that.
He's giving you all the right info however!!
Only one falls out of tolerance, so would be interesting to know how many were changed.
I don't think he changed any as I have said on the other thread, something to do with even wear and not to fiddle with them unless one is way out. The technician who did the car actually explained this to the admin guy who tried to explain it to me. I will speak to John and update the thread for the benefit of others.
Have you sorted your cruise SRH ?
My shims were the same, one was just out of limit. I have no issue with it being left. The tolerance is there for a reason and a lot of factors come into checking these, most are open to variance themselves. The ambient temperature should be 20 degrees C for example. Very much doubt any of these are tested at that which will affect the measurements.
Hoping to look at my cruise in the next few weeks, just need some better weather. Could be really handy in a few weeks time.
Hoping to look at my cruise in the next few weeks, just need some better weather. Could be really handy in a few weeks time.
drop a specialist like reddish motorsport a line as i said earlier and get their opinion on the 2 valves I've mentioned... now way should they have been left, they will get tighter and looser respectively. Thats the hole reason for measuring....... if anyone is leaving a valve out of spec the job isn't being done. end of.
Liverpool
Sometimes you will get a re-adjustment without the need for any extra shims, as they can be swapped around to bring other valves closer to tolerance.
However, this will also mean removing & measuring the shims individually, rather than just the clearances, and will thus take more time as it's a bit fiddly.
However, this will also mean removing & measuring the shims individually, rather than just the clearances, and will thus take more time as it's a bit fiddly.
mmm-five said:
this still means changing shims....
these guys are talking about leaving out of tolerance shims. no way. no one on this board will convince me thats correct way to conduct a Valve clearance. if its out of spec get it in spec... it takes 20 seconds to swap a shim while your at the measure stage... madness. absolutely madness.
OP the box of shims comes with a large range of shims in 0.4mm increments...... their would have been a shim in that kit to bring this within tolerance, this is exactly why we see so many cars later on with cam / rocker finger wear, because indies/service Tech make choices like this....
srhutch said:
out of spec ... change to a shim that brings them in spec..... simple as really, if you guys choose to leave them out of spec them do so.. but the hole purpose of the valve clearance is to keep them within that range.... otherwise whats the point of a TOLERANCE range.... remember it could in some cases it will be many miles till the next valve clearance check which those highlighted valves will continue to tighten / loosen respectively.
OP just get some second advice like I've said, drop redish an email, completely independent of me or anyone on here, don't take someones word on the internet go speak to some well know indies, I'm trying to give you the best advice for your car.
once in their and measuring its frankly insane not bring them in the tolerance range.... the measuring is the longest bit! actually changing a shim takes no time like I've mentioned.
I agree with Beedub, there is a tolerance that is accepted and they are out of tolerance.
They are basically saying the tolerance is wrong, so whats the point of there being an official tolerance.
The job had already been done, so for the sake of a £5 shim they have left it out of spec.
Granted it is only slightly out and may take thousands more miles to show any more wear but while you are in there just change the shim.
You have paid for them to be checked, they check and basically say one needs changing but then left it as it was.
They are basically saying the tolerance is wrong, so whats the point of there being an official tolerance.
The job had already been done, so for the sake of a £5 shim they have left it out of spec.
Granted it is only slightly out and may take thousands more miles to show any more wear but while you are in there just change the shim.
You have paid for them to be checked, they check and basically say one needs changing but then left it as it was.
I have two shims at 0.179 (supposedly). If the garage I used had a feeler gauge measured at 0.179 then I'm not going to argue over 0.001mm.
As said before, temperature variations will easily effect this figure. The tolerance these are set to are only around 1/100th of a mm at the end of the day, this isn't that precise and when measured with a feeler gauge in all sorts of conditions will never be.
As said before, temperature variations will easily effect this figure. The tolerance these are set to are only around 1/100th of a mm at the end of the day, this isn't that precise and when measured with a feeler gauge in all sorts of conditions will never be.
Interesting thread guys as looking to put my car in for insp2 in the spring.
With regards to tolerances, would you expect dealers to do work strictly to spec? or would they make 'pragmatic' (albeit non standard) decisions?
I've been leaning towards a dealer insp2 so would it be worth priming them with expectations (tolerances and shim changes) when booking the car in?
... This sounds a bit s**t as I'm sure they wouldn't want a customer telling them how to do their work, but on the other hand it would prep them not to skimp on the required checks or otherwise work required?
With regards to tolerances, would you expect dealers to do work strictly to spec? or would they make 'pragmatic' (albeit non standard) decisions?
I've been leaning towards a dealer insp2 so would it be worth priming them with expectations (tolerances and shim changes) when booking the car in?
... This sounds a bit s**t as I'm sure they wouldn't want a customer telling them how to do their work, but on the other hand it would prep them not to skimp on the required checks or otherwise work required?
i think this is the single most biggest area where a good few of us s54 owners innocently haven't had what we've paid for, for numerous reasons. 100% include myself in that statement too.... small choices like this can lead to even tighter or loosening of the out of spec valves... all you need is a year of lots of high revving work, alittle more wear , don't forget the next Valve clearance for this car could be 4 years!! the next service would be oil, then the next insp2... longer if you go by the mile marker.
so much mis information regarding these shims... I'm SO glad I've learned to do this myself with my own tools to do the job, not only can i now talk to the service techs with real knowledge, i can advise exactly what my requirements are, and my requirement is these are recorded, and kept in spec.
Zamo now if you didn't have the record sheet, they'd just say "in spec" no argument , nothing to come back on, so thats how important that record sheet is, it allows you to go back and challenge, something i haven't done in past which has led to my recent problem and also alot of question marks over what was done, if anything. my valves were tight on the inlet , one so out of spec i needed to take the pressure off the shim by pressing on the valve spring. i believe simpsons did the same thing, left them our of spec , coupled with my high rev use, boosted engine, led to something that could have caused damage.... luckily it didn't.
Their is a tolerance range their for a reason. They need to be within this range. Im not saying anything is going to be damaged, its not going to hurt anything immediately but keep it within the range allows for more wear till the next service, your already out of the tolerance. Not good practice and anyone thats tells you otherwise CBA to do the job properly, i have no idea why he'd measure that, see its out of spec and for 20 seconds not change out the shim to bring it within the tolerances, make ZERO sense.. He needs to look up the term "tolerance range".
so much mis information regarding these shims... I'm SO glad I've learned to do this myself with my own tools to do the job, not only can i now talk to the service techs with real knowledge, i can advise exactly what my requirements are, and my requirement is these are recorded, and kept in spec.
Zamo now if you didn't have the record sheet, they'd just say "in spec" no argument , nothing to come back on, so thats how important that record sheet is, it allows you to go back and challenge, something i haven't done in past which has led to my recent problem and also alot of question marks over what was done, if anything. my valves were tight on the inlet , one so out of spec i needed to take the pressure off the shim by pressing on the valve spring. i believe simpsons did the same thing, left them our of spec , coupled with my high rev use, boosted engine, led to something that could have caused damage.... luckily it didn't.
Their is a tolerance range their for a reason. They need to be within this range. Im not saying anything is going to be damaged, its not going to hurt anything immediately but keep it within the range allows for more wear till the next service, your already out of the tolerance. Not good practice and anyone thats tells you otherwise CBA to do the job properly, i have no idea why he'd measure that, see its out of spec and for 20 seconds not change out the shim to bring it within the tolerances, make ZERO sense.. He needs to look up the term "tolerance range".
As someone who has rebuilt engines (not BMWs) and played for endless hours with shims I would certainly agree it was very bad practice not to have changed those shims when there was an opportunity. What I have found from experience is that shims themselves have a tolerence so even if you think you have the correct shim you need to measure it as they can be a few thou out either way. Garages will not spend the amount of time that a home mechanic will spend on shimming and they will simply measure what is required put in the shim and move on without retesting the gap and as a consequence you can still be marginally out of tolerence range. That is just one of the reasons why my car will never see the inside of a garage,
Well I wasn't expecting all of the comments that this thread has aroused but I will be at the Indy next weekend. I really believe that Peter and his team are actually enthusiasts and BMW fanatics and just two of them have over 20 years dealership experience. I remember a conversation where Peter said he left because the dealership is about time and motion not doing the job as it should be done.
I really don't think it is to do with rushing the job or being too lazy. I will however forward some of the points raised and see what they have to say. I will of course edit out all but the text itself.
I am eager to hear what they have to say.
Thanks Beedub and all others who have contributed.
I really don't think it is to do with rushing the job or being too lazy. I will however forward some of the points raised and see what they have to say. I will of course edit out all but the text itself.
I am eager to hear what they have to say.
Thanks Beedub and all others who have contributed.
Z4MO said:Well I wasn't expecting all of the comments that this thread has aroused but I will be at the Indy next weekend. I really believe that Peter and his team are actually enthusiasts and BMW fanatics and just two of them have over 20 years dealership experience. I remember a conversation where Peter said he left because the dealership is about time and motion not doing the job as it should be done.
I really don't think it is to do with rushing the job or being too lazy. I will however forward some of the points raised and see what they have to say. I will of course edit out all but the text itself.
I am eager to hear what they have to say.
Thanks Beedub and all others who have contributed.
just thinking about your car and how this should be done Z4mo.... contact a completely independent like redish and get a second opinion from someone who does this day out also ill be very surprised if they condone this practice.... if your happy and trust them opinion then thats fine too... just telling you I've been shafted in the past and its these type of practices that cause problems later down the line ( admittedly REALLy far down the line)
[/quote]just thinking about your car and how this should be done Z4mo.... contact a completely independent like redish and get a second opinion from someone who does this day out also ill be very surprised if they condone this practice.... if your happy and trust them opinion then thats fine too... just telling you I've been shafted in the past and its these type of practices that cause problems later down the line ( admittedly REALLy far down the line)[/quote]
I know you are looking out for me man and I don't doubt it for a second. No one can do your intention down
I know you are looking out for me man and I don't doubt it for a second. No one can do your intention down