Advice on service for my M

[Beedub]

You are right its only .01mm but surely its about getting the job done that you asked for.
Changing that .01 now could save you at the next inspection if they end up like Beedubs with no gap at all.
They checked, they are a little out of spec, so change it to get it in spec.
Its like paying to have your spark plugs checked, they take them out, tell you the gaps need adjusted but just put them back in without adjusting.

simple as really.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^

and don't forget the looser one on the exhaust side will start banging the valve seat if that continues to loosen , too tight which can lead to the valve being held open both in the extremes BTW you no-where near that but all it takes is a year of accelerated wear, why wait, just get them in spec don't forget this guy was ALREADY in their as part of a paid for inspection2 and he could have just done this to the tolerance, my concern isn't so much for the car right now as currently its not going to hurt anything and OP can get these in spec easily, but this "master" tech thats left them where they are... even more concerning he's quoting incorrect info....

Don't forget people the next Valve clearance on this car could be 4 years away if you run to the schedule.... no way should those be left like that or if they are, they need checking again in 12 months time. Personally id want them in spec, especially after my recent experience which iS very likely the same type of decision that simpson probably made initially which eventually led to a zero clearance, i can't challenge in retrospect because i didn't get a shim report, shim reports are imperative as they allow THIS type of dialogue if needed...

Hell we may be splitting hairs over 0.01 but lets not forget the difference of the bottom to top end tolerance itself is only 0.05m, the window is tiny, so that 0.01 is still important imo ( if only to allow that tiny bit more wear before the next VC check) .. out of tolerance is out of tolerance and we are already dealing with a tiny range, they need to be in spec. Just trying to save people the hassle i had to go through potentially it was very stressful and in the end i had to research for weeks and jump into it myself and buy some expensive bits as part of that process.

I agree the clearance should have been adjusted when the check was made.When it comes to the use of feeler blades it's not an exact science and its down to the person how the feel is interpreted when it's down to .01mm, he could have wrote down .018 and you would be none the wiser.
The only way you can be sure they have been checked correctly is to do what you did and check them yourself,but to do that you do need some experience .

agree with you totally on them not being an exact science literally down to what one person thinks, to another really, i checked the one tolerance a few times in the end , then asked my dad to check with his opinion as on initial check it felt X then on the second check it felt X , id then start overthinking over checking and confuse myself as to what id class the tolerance , lol... guess my inexperience showing.

 

[Z4MO]

Darren wood replied ;

I've had one of our technicians look at your shim report. The only one out
of tolerance according to the report is the inlet 12, which measured 0.17
which is small but wouldn't really affect the running of the vehicle.

Anthony BM Workshop replied ;

I've looked at the report and the only cylinders that I would have adjusted is cylinder 1 (inlet 1 and 2) and cylinder 6 (inlet 12). Cylinder 1 is just on the tolerance and cylinder 6 (inlet 12) is too tight by 0.01mm which is marginal.

I spoke to both guys.
I was left with the impression that no two people doing the check on the car would come up with the same no's even if they followed each other with the guage.
I was also told by one that when he was trained to use the guages it was described like putting a knife into honey and feeling the slightest pull on the knife as it comes out ! That in itself leaves door open to interpretation
I mentioned who did the check and one of them said he is a very well respected tech.
In regard to tolerances he said each engine creates its own fingerprint or footprint in regard to how it runs and if it is not wildly away from the guideline tolerance it should be allowed to make its own print.

In conclusion there is a human element to all this and the fact that the tolerances are guideline because engines run uniquely too.
Maybe the tolerance is not as precise as we think they are and the engine can take a moderate difference without long term damage. ??

 

[srhutch]

You are right its only .01mm but surely its about getting the job done that you asked for.
Changing that .01 now could save you at the next inspection if they end up like Beedubs with no gap at all.
They checked, they are a little out of spec, so change it to get it in spec.
Its like paying to have your spark plugs checked, they take them out, tell you the gaps need adjusted but just put them back in without adjusting.

simple as really.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^

and don't forget the looser one on the exhaust side will start banging the valve seat if that continues to loosen , too tight which can lead to the valve being held open both in the extremes BTW you no-where near that but all it takes is a year of accelerated wear, why wait, just get them in spec don't forget this guy was ALREADY in their as part of a paid for inspection2 and he could have just done this to the tolerance, my concern isn't so much for the car right now as currently its not going to hurt anything and OP can get these in spec easily, but this "master" tech thats left them where they are... even more concerning he's quoting incorrect info....

Don't forget people the next Valve clearance on this car could be 4 years away if you run to the schedule.... no way should those be left like that or if they are, they need checking again in 12 months time. Personally id want them in spec, especially after my recent experience which iS very likely the same type of decision that simpson probably made initially which eventually led to a zero clearance, i can't challenge in retrospect because i didn't get a shim report, shim reports are imperative as they allow THIS type of dialogue if needed...

Hell we may be splitting hairs over 0.01 but lets not forget the difference of the bottom to top end tolerance itself is only 0.05m, the window is tiny, so that 0.01 is still important imo ( if only to allow that tiny bit more wear before the next VC check) .. out of tolerance is out of tolerance and we are already dealing with a tiny range, they need to be in spec. Just trying to save people the hassle i had to go through potentially it was very stressful and in the end i had to research for weeks and jump into it myself and buy some expensive bits as part of that process.

I agree the clearance should have been adjusted when the check was made.When it comes to the use of feeler blades it's not an exact science and its down to the person how the feel is interpreted when it's down to .01mm, he could have wrote down .018 and you would be none the wiser.
The only way you can be sure they have been checked correctly is to do what you did and check them yourself,but to do that you do need some experience .

Exactly what I have been saying.

If this valve ended up at 0.00mm clearance, you have bigger issues than a shim that hasn't been replaced.

 

[Beedub]

do them again in 12 months, they will problem have bit more room to be adjust but i do stand by my original comment and anthony @ BM said he would have adjusted those valves, your tech was in their and he should of changed them imo... however i like the fact he was honest about that on his Shim report, he could have easily written 0.01 up and down respectively so the sheet Looked good.

all i wanted to do z4mo was educate you further, so next time if you see something your unhappy with, you can tackle it their and then by looking at your shim report. i WISH i done the same myself in my earlier days of z4 ownership, and i wish id took the time to understand the valve checks. Still recent tight valve gave me the confidence to from now on do my own Valve checks in-between them been checked at an independent, so between the 2 of us checking, things should be pretty good.

 

[srhutch]

Beedub, I presume you never got shim reports for your's before from Simpsons.

 

[MrPT]

What's the latest theory behind why we sometimes seem excessive rocker arm wear? Is it related to valve clearance adjustments in any way or is it just a matter of occasional case hardening failure (due to oil starvation?) followed by rapid degradation of the surface?

I've still got the followers that came off my car when it had a rebuild. The wear will shock you - measurable in millimetres, not 0.01s!

 

[srhutch]

Darren wood replied ;

I've had one of our technicians look at your shim report. The only one out
of tolerance according to the report is the inlet 12, which measured 0.17
which is small but wouldn't really affect the running of the vehicle.

Anthony BM Workshop replied ;

I've looked at the report and the only cylinders that I would have adjusted is cylinder 1 (inlet 1 and 2) and cylinder 6 (inlet 12). Cylinder 1 is just on the tolerance and cylinder 6 (inlet 12) is too tight by 0.01mm which is marginal.

I spoke to both guys.
I was left with the impression that no two people doing the check on the car would come up with the same no's even if they followed each other with the guage.
I was also told by one that when he was trained to use the guages it was described like putting a knife into honey and feeling the slightest pull on the knife as it comes out ! That in itself leaves door open to interpretation
I mentioned who did the check and one of them said he is a very well respected tech.
In regard to tolerances he said each engine creates its own fingerprint or footprint in regard to how it runs and if it is not wildly away from the guideline tolerance it should be allowed to make its own print.

In conclusion there is a human element to all this and the fact that the tolerances are guideline because engines run uniquely too.
Maybe the tolerance is not as precise as we think they are and the engine can take a moderate difference without long term damage. ??

Missed this before I posted. Two sensible responses which backs of the confidence in the Indi that did the work. Could also be that a 0.18 feeler wouldn't fit, but a 0.17mm feeler went in easily so it's nearer to 0.18mm anyway.

I would be happy with this reponse. As said engines will create footprints and sometimes it's better to leave things as they are.

 

[Beedub]

What's the latest theory behind why we sometimes seem excessive rocker arm wear? Is it related to valve clearance adjustments in any way or is it just a matter of occasional case hardening failure (due to oil starvation?) followed by rapid degradation of the surface?

I've still got the followers that came off my car when it had a rebuild. The wear will shock you - measurable in millimetres, not 0.01s!

pics??

 

[mr wilks]

Darren wood replied ;

I've had one of our technicians look at your shim report. The only one out
of tolerance according to the report is the inlet 12, which measured 0.17
which is small but wouldn't really affect the running of the vehicle.

Anthony BM Workshop replied ;

I've looked at the report and the only cylinders that I would have adjusted is cylinder 1 (inlet 1 and 2) and cylinder 6 (inlet 12). Cylinder 1 is just on the tolerance and cylinder 6 (inlet 12) is too tight by 0.01mm which is marginal.

I spoke to both guys.
I was left with the impression that no two people doing the check on the car would come up with the same no's even if they followed each other with the guage.
I was also told by one that when he was trained to use the guages it was described like putting a knife into honey and feeling the slightest pull on the knife as it comes out ! That in itself leaves door open to interpretation
I mentioned who did the check and one of them said he is a very well respected tech.
In regard to tolerances he said each engine creates its own fingerprint or footprint in regard to how it runs and if it is not wildly away from the guideline tolerance it should be allowed to make its own print.

In conclusion there is a human element to all this and the fact that the tolerances are guideline because engines run uniquely too.
Maybe the tolerance is not as precise as we think they are and the engine can take a moderate difference without long term damage. ??

Hope thatputs your mind at rest Mo , 2 regarded workshops talking much sense without scare & as i'm sure you treat your car well i wouldn't worry from here on about it

 

[Beedub]

Beedub, I presume you never got shim reports for your's before from Simpsons.

no. just an No shims needed. Wasn't overly interested in knowing the ins and outs of the s54 at that time too tbh... but as they are getting older and I've stepped up on the DIY work ( and grew a real attachment to the car), i really see the error of my ways, but them days i was very much of a mindset, ill pay someone else and concentrate on what club id be hitting that weekend or girl i was hooking up with

Hindsight is wonderful thing... But i trust none of these garages now days, but i definitely placed way to much trust on the likes of simpson on the back of their reputation and also for the amount of work i was giving them too, i felt that would have looked after me but looking back and looking at some of their invoices now with abit more knowledge they definitely took the Pee at times, and my lack of knowledge meant i was an easy target.

They aren't bad people, none of these higher regarded indie garages are, but going in educated and with alittle knowledge can stop them taking the royal piss, i will still use them in the future too, BUT... i will be very clear and very strict on my expectations, same where i go.

 

[Beedub]

What's the latest theory behind why we sometimes seem excessive rocker arm wear? Is it related to valve clearance adjustments in any way or is it just a matter of occasional case hardening failure (due to oil starvation?) followed by rapid degradation of the surface?

I've still got the followers that came off my car when it had a rebuild. The wear will shock you - measurable in millimetres, not 0.01s!

bad material batch from the factory maybe?? ran for a considerable time out of spec maybe?? i guess as with all things, things just go wrong for no other reason than the law of averages.

 

[srhutch]

Beedub, I presume you never got shim reports for your's before from Simpsons.

no. just an No shims needed. Wasn't overly interested in knowing the ins and outs of the s54 at that time too tbh... but as they are getting older and I've stepped up on the DIY work ( and grew a real attachment to the car), i really see the error of my ways, but them days i was very much of a mindset, ill pay someone else and concentrate on what club id be hitting that weekend or girl i was hooking up with

Hindsight is wonderful thing... But i trust none of these garages now days, but i definitely placed way to much trust on the likes of simpson on the back of their reputation and also for the amount of work i was giving them too, i felt that would have looked after me but looking back and looking at some of their invoices now with abit more knowledge they definitely took the Pee at times, and my lack of knowledge meant i was an easy target.

They aren't bad people, none of these higher regarded indie garages are, but going in educated and with alittle knowledge can stop them taking the royal piss, i will still use them in the future too, BUT... i will be very clear and very strict on my expectations, same where i go.

There will come a time where I will do mine. The only reason I don't now is for resale reasons, although I have no plans to sell. I'm a precision engineer by trade so well within my skill set, although a bigger garage would help . :lol:

 

[mr wilks]

What's the latest theory behind why we sometimes seem excessive rocker arm wear? Is it related to valve clearance adjustments in any way or is it just a matter of occasional case hardening failure (due to oil starvation?) followed by rapid degradation of the surface?

I've still got the followers that came off my car when it had a rebuild. The wear will shock you - measurable in millimetres, not 0.01s!

bad material batch from the factory maybe?? ran for a considerable time out of spec maybe?? i guess as with all things, things just go wrong for no other reason than the law of averages.

Along with possible material defects & law of averages Id wager thrashing from cold , thrashing while hot ( trackdays ) & both coupled with poor level of maintenance in regards duration , spec & who carried it out :wink:

 

[Beedub]

What's the latest theory behind why we sometimes seem excessive rocker arm wear? Is it related to valve clearance adjustments in any way or is it just a matter of occasional case hardening failure (due to oil starvation?) followed by rapid degradation of the surface?

I've still got the followers that came off my car when it had a rebuild. The wear will shock you - measurable in millimetres, not 0.01s!

bad material batch from the factory maybe?? ran for a considerable time out of spec maybe?? i guess as with all things, things just go wrong for no other reason than the law of averages.

Along with possible material defects & law of averages Id wager thrashing from cold , thrashing while hot ( trackdays ) & both coupled with poor level of maintenance in regards duration , spec & who carried it out :wink:

all possible...

 

[MrPT]

Here are the best and worst of them, side by side:

 

[Beedub]

Beedub, I presume you never got shim reports for your's before from Simpsons.

no. just an No shims needed. Wasn't overly interested in knowing the ins and outs of the s54 at that time too tbh... but as they are getting older and I've stepped up on the DIY work ( and grew a real attachment to the car), i really see the error of my ways, but them days i was very much of a mindset, ill pay someone else and concentrate on what club id be hitting that weekend or girl i was hooking up with

Hindsight is wonderful thing... But i trust none of these garages now days, but i definitely placed way to much trust on the likes of simpson on the back of their reputation and also for the amount of work i was giving them too, i felt that would have looked after me but looking back and looking at some of their invoices now with abit more knowledge they definitely took the Pee at times, and my lack of knowledge meant i was an easy target.

They aren't bad people, none of these higher regarded indie garages are, but going in educated and with alittle knowledge can stop them taking the royal piss, i will still use them in the future too, BUT... i will be very clear and very strict on my expectations, same where i go.

There will come a time where I will do mine. The only reason I don't now is for resale reasons, although I have no plans to sell. I'm a precision engineer by trade so well within my skill set, although a bigger garage would help . :lol:

i really enjoyed it in the end... I'm pretty handy with spanners when i can be arsed , bit scary to be faced with all those valve clearances, i have no training just a real OCD attention to detail and balls to give things a go, this usually see's me through, it does help that my dad was an apprentice to denis walsh ( he always tells me this like i ned to bow down, i have no idea who that guy is) and a ford master tech so his advice is important to me. I will have a go at anything...

i agree on the resale which is why ill be doing my checks inside of getting my stamps on time.

 

[Z4M-2006]

On the bad rocker wear subject....

Overtight and loose clearances could cause a problem if left for a long period of time.....But if the service schedule is kept (with clearance checks)and the problem still occurs,then i would guess that the CPV is leaking oil back out of the head into the main oil gallery..

The CPV isnt a common failure point,but neither are the cam followers wearing..

I dont have any real evidence that there is any direct relation,there isnt enough of the failures that you can get your hands on as an individual..

But its a cheap enough thing to replace,so worth swapping out..

 

[Beedub]

Here are the best and worst of them, side by side:

Holy crap its worn flat nearly whats where is you can see a clear Crease where the wear finishes and starts again...

those fingers are incredibly hard material as with the cam lobes, surely thats got to be a material defect on the cam or the rocker.

 

[Z4M-2006]

Case hardened....

Once the hardened surface is compromised,wear becomes rapid.

 

[Beedub]

turned into a very education thread for s54 engine owners.