Z4MC values (again!)

exdos

Veteran
Edit Wondermike - this thread started out in the for-sale section but some of the posts probably merited further discussion out of the OP's for-sale thread.

This one in case you're confused :P

original guvnor said:
Might just be me but a look on Pistonheads the other day seemed to suggest that Z4MC prices were hardening. Apart from a Cat D there was nothing under £16k and I think about 8 out of the 21 cars advertised had been sold.
As a prospective buyer of a Z4 MC, I've been studying the market for a while, and it appears to me that the prices on Pistonheads are generally about £2k higher than those on Autotrader. Cheapest on Pistonheads at the moment is £14.5k for a 2006 MC with 57k miles, sat nav and parking assist, which is a similar car and spec to Sully's but in Imola Red. The Z4 MC was sold new in the boom years and now money is tight It's definitely a buyers' market. It's even worse for the owners selling anything from the BMW 6 series.
 
exdos said:
original guvnor said:
Might just be me but a look on Pistonheads the other day seemed to suggest that Z4MC prices were hardening. Apart from a Cat D there was nothing under £16k and I think about 8 out of the 21 cars advertised had been sold.
As a prospective buyer of a Z4 MC, I've been studying the market for a while, and it appears to me that the prices on Pistonheads are generally about £2k higher than those on Autotrader. Cheapest on Pistonheads at the moment is £14.5k for a 2006 MC with 57k miles, sat nav and parking assist, which is a similar car and spec to Sully's but in Imola Red. The Z4 MC was sold new in the boom years and now money is tight It's definitely a buyers' market. It's even worse for the owners selling anything from the BMW 6 series.

Just to put some perspective on that, the boom times were already coming to an end when the Z4MC was being sold as a new car and they were very quickly heavily discounted to shift what was a very slow moving model. Very few people paid anything like the retail price on these new. I paid £12k under list for a 10 month old car in 2007 and probably still paid over the odds for it. They are definitely a bit of a niche market and rare though they are, they aren't rare enough to keep the prices up in the same fashion as the M Coupe.
 
dgm said:
Just to put some perspective on that, the boom times were already coming to an end when the Z4MC was being sold as a new car and they were very quickly heavily discounted to shift what was a very slow moving model. Very few people paid anything like the retail price on these new. I paid £12k under list for a 10 month old car in 2007 and probably still paid over the odds for it. They are definitely a bit of a niche market and rare though they are, they aren't rare enough to keep the prices up in the same fashion as the M Coupe.
You are correct. Quality cars which are expensive to buy when new have always been "bargains" when sold on the used car market, because they are perceived to be expensive to run and maintain, so the number of prospective buyers is always going to be relatively small, even in the "good times". So in the present "bad times" buyers will be much thinner on the ground. So, if most owners like yourself got their Z4 MCs at massive discount prices attempt to sell what are now 5 year old cars in the present economic climate, surely they can't expect droves of prospective buyers willing to pay relatively high used car prices, today, based on depreciation of the original list price? Owners should take a look at Glass's valuations to see what their Z4 MCs are really worth in a totally unsentimental market. They'll be in for a real shock! The problem for Z4 MC owners is that there are plenty of Z4 Coupes which will satisfy the needs of many who want the looks and image but don't need the ///M performance, whereas the Z3 MC has no base-model coupe rival, so there's no comparison. I already own a low mileage S54 Z3 MC.

Presently, there are a few Z4 MCs for sale below £15k with dealers (see Autotrader) yet most Private sellers are attempting to sell their Z4 MCs at higher than dealer prices! Since dealers offer warranties and private sellers do not, if all else is equal, purchasers are going to buy the same car from the dealer and not the private seller. It's a sad fact but many owners who need to sell are going to have to take big financial losses to move their cars on. Like it or not, a 2006 Z4 MC with average mileage is worth just £8k to £10k as a trade in, as a private sale they are worth about £2k more and a trade price add another £2k : that's £12k as a private sale, yet most private sellers are asking around £16k or more! As a prospective buyer, I'm not willing to pay £2k more than dealer prices for an unwarranted car just because the owner participates on a forum and is an "enthusiast". I expect most other prospective buyers feel the same.
 
Slightly extreme valuation on second hand Z4MC's, exdos. Those numbers seem a little off. Parkers is currently showing an average mileage good spec example on a 56 plate as:

Franchise Dealer: £16776
Independent: £16031
Private Good: £14946

Agree with you to some extent with the Z3MC and happy to hear you made that investment. That particular example of course is quite a 'marmite' car with a lot of people so you're probably going even more niche with your prospective market there too.

Good luck selling Sully and apologies for the thread hijack. Sorry to hear you have to sell but the R32 should ease your pain. :thumbsup:
 
exdos said:
Since dealers offer warranties and private sellers do not, if all else is equal, purchasers are going to buy the same car from the dealer and not the private seller.

Private sellers can buy a comprehensive 12 month warranty from BMW and offer it as part of the deal to the buyer. In my experience, the warranty company (mondial on behalf off BMW) is more than reasonable in the event of a claim - I claimed for new wheel bearings on a car with 45000 miles on the clock with no problem whatsoever. I can't see that happening with most non-AUC warranties, as it would be considered a wear and tear item.

Personally, I would rather buy a car direct from the previous owner who in this particular instance is clearly an enthusiast and has taken sensible preventative maintenance steps.

I would agree that Glasses Guide is probably the most realistic and also suggest that Parker's prices are optimistic. Both are just that, a guide.

At the end of the day, if Z4MCs are advertised at 15-16k then that is market at present despite what the guides might indicate.

The only car I have seen on offer below that recently turned out to be a Cat D.
 
Sully,

I'm glad that you've taken my comments as being constructive, because that is the spirit in which I have written.

The valuation of any of our possessions is only relevant at the time when we must sell, so if you don't need to sell your Z4 MC, you simply keep it and enjoy it, irrespective of present valuation and market conditions. However, if you want or need to move you car on in the present climate, then you must suffer the depressed market conditions that are prevailing. Unless you are lucky and find a buyer quickly at, or near, your first advertised price, then you will suffer the problem of having to reduce your price in the weeks/months ahead in an attempt to find a buyer. Once an advertised car shows that the price has been reduced, a prospective buyer thinks that the owner definitely wants/needs to sell, and that there is a possibility that other prospective buyers have already viewed the car and found faults with the car and rejected it. Of course, none of these supposition may be true, but that is how I am viewing the Z4 MC market I'm following. Once a private seller gets onto the "slope" of having to keep reducing the advertised asking price in order to attract buyers, unless there's a private buyer who sees your car as representing a "bargain", then you'll ultimately end up having to trade your car as a part exchange with a dealer, who will then give you "book" price based on Glass's or other low trade values, and these prices are LOW!

Owners try to sell their cars privately in order to avoid having to take dealer trade-in prices as the last resort, therefore, if they want to sell their cars for more than trade-in valuations then they MUST be realistic in their asking prices. Therefore private sellers must offer their cars at less than dealer prices, which is more than the seller will receive as a trade-in price if you eventually discover you can't sell privately. Therefore, I see little point in advertising at, say £16k, a car worth only £10k at maximum as a trade-in, when some dealers are presently selling similar vehicles for less than £15k. Why would I, and other prospective buyers, want to pay more than dealer prices? Surely, it's better at the outset to accept the fact that you're not going to get as much for your car as you'd like to get but you'd be happier to get more than a trade-in value? If this is so, then IMO it's better to advertise your car at the outset at, say £13.5k, knowing full well that it represents a real "bargain" for the next owner, so that your car will act like a magnet for enquiries, and from then on, it's up to you to sell your car on its USP (unique selling point) that you are offering a very straight car at a bargain price because you really want to sell it and don't want to end up having to trade it in at a dealer price. At the end of the day, if you are going to replace the car for sale with another car, then you are also a buyer, like me, looking for a bargain.

Bearing in mind what dgm said, that most Z4 MC were originally sold at massive discounts from the £44k RRP, Z4 MC owners are selling cars with a REAL original selling price of, say £36k, so look up the depreciation tables for cars of that original value over the age of your car and you will see that any unsentimental valuation will agree with valuations of Glass's and the Inland revenue. We all love our cars but the market is simply cold and heartless.

I have a friend who is an Insolvency Practitioner, who always says: "Your first loss is your best loss." In other words, grab what you can whilst you can, because if you don't you'll suffer a lot more. In his job he sees it all the time and distressed sales always yield very little for the seller.

I'm not trying to talk you into selling me your car, because I will not buy a blue car, no matter how cheap it is. Sorry for the length of this and I sincerely hope that you find a buyer soon because it is lovely! :thumbsup:
 
I thought the numbers of Z4MC's and Z3MC's were broadly the same?

Not sure I agree with a lot of Exdos says. Particularly the bit about the 3-litre Z4 Coupe reducing the value of the M. That argument hasn't affected the M3 CSL pricing.

I also don't agree people are trying to sell higher than dealers. Good, well cared for, below average mileage examples (the sort often but not exclusively sold through AUC) are being advertised at circa £20k. The higher mileage, un-warrantied, scruffier examples being sold through small "here today gone tomorrow" type garages are £14.5k for a reason because most prospective buyers don't want them.

There have been more "Z4MC wanted" threads on here recently than "for sale" ones and it seems to be harder to find nice, tight, straight ones. It's just the same with Z3MC's - there is a huge spread in price between high mileage scruffy older models and the later, low mileage S54's.
 
Oh and when JDM has this morning sold his 3-litre with 49k miles for circa 13.5k why would Sully advertise his M
for the same?!!!
 
A dealer often only offers based on "average" cars, even though the example you are selling is well above average. This makes a huge difference in value, so comparing a car to a dealer car is not always valid.

My first Z sold in hours for way, way above what the dealer offered (i.e. about 6k) as it was way, way above average dealer condition sold cars. I therefore don't think you can pick any dealer sold car, compare it to your own and make a comment about the value.
 
Original Guvnor,

I've had my 2002 Z3 MC since June 2003 and have followed the vagaries of the Z3 MC market ever since. There is absolutely no comparison with the Z4 MC market and the Z3 MC market. Back in 2004, Hexagon, was buying low mileage S54 models from owners at more than they had paid for them! and they have continued to buy low mileage models and are prepared to sit on them for ages at their very high marked prices. My Z3 MC is currently insured, some 9 years later, at an agreed valuation of just £4k less than I paid for it. Has a similar thing happened in the Z4 MC market or even the Z3 M Roadster market? Likewise, E46 M3 CSLs have no effect whatsoever on the Z4 MC market; they're totally different markets of chalk and cheese. If you take a completely dispassionate view, as I am doing as a buyer, the used car market generally sees the Z4 MC as just another BMW, whereas, "enthusiasts" don't. Not all buyers are enthusiasts. It's dead easy to let your heart rule your head as a buyer and pay more than you should because you like something, but in a buyers market, that would be stupid to do so.

At the end of the day, you'll only ever discover the market value of anything, when you've taken the cash from your buyer. Take away all the sentiment which we all have for our cars, (we all think our ZMs are so special - which they are) but then find that presently there are less buyers than cars for sale (i.e. buyers' market) and then find that if you MUST sell to a heartless motor trader he'll offer you no more than book price, because he sees your car as nothing more than another "unit" from which he can make profit at your expense, I think the majority of sellers will end up disappointed with the eventual cash return they'll get.

I don't know where you're looking but If you think I'm out on my prices, take a look at what's for sale today on Autotrader, not just Pistonheads.

In making my comments I'm simply being realistic, and explaining the rationale of the old proverb that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I genuinely wish Sully the very best of luck in obtaining his asking price, but even if his car was in a colour of my choice, I would already dismiss it as being over-priced like most of the privately advertised Z4 MCs (especially on Pistonheads). I may well be wrong, and I may have to wait some time to find the right car at what I consider to be the right price, but I know that the prospects for sellers of Z4 MCs, or any other used car, is not going to improve as the state of the UK economy continues to worsen. In the times of economic depressions its always the market for luxury items that take the biggest hit. Nobody NEEDs a Z4 MC as a first car: they are luxury goods.
 
Exdos, slightly off topic but if you have any pics of your Z3MC would be good to see on a separate thread. Bit of a fan :)
 
Please can anyone tell me the history of this Z4MC presently for sale at £14,750 which had previously been advertised on Pistonheads for sale at £16,950: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...mw/radius/1501/postcode/wr136aw/page/4?logcod

Apart from the wood trim/red interior combo, what's wrong with it? Has it been used as track slag, hire car, or is it straight? Does anyone know why the asking price has recently been reduced by over £2k? Is it simply because the original asking price was too high and it didn't sell, or is it because it was simply over-priced? http://pistonheads.com/sales/3598762.htm
 
Exdos,

We'll have to agree to disagree I think.

The point on the M3 CSL was that the presence of masses of E46 M3's on the used market has had absolutely no effect on the recent rise in CSL prices so why a 3-litre Z4C should have a downward effect on M coupes I don't understand. I think that argument is nonsense.

There are some very cheap z3Mc's out there because they are knackered/tatty etc and the M
Coupe did depreciate fast when it came out.

There are only about 500 Z4MC's out there in RHD. As they age, get written-off, rack up high mileages etc the number of tidy and straight ones shrink. That will mean that values for those cars will firm, creating the sort of large spread seen on Z3MC's now.

It's nothing to do with sentimentality. Nobody is under any illusion that the values of these cars is suddenly going to rocket but at the same time I don't believe good low mileage ones will fall much in value now from where they are at present.

The reason PH prices are higher is because on the whole it is enthusiasts buying off enthusiasts. In my opinion
Autotrader is full of sharks - let the buyer beware.
 
original guvnor said:
Exdos,

We'll have to agree to disagree I think.

The point on the M3 CSL was that the presence of masses of E46 M3's on the used market has had absolutely no effect on the recent rise in CSL prices so why a 3-litre Z4C should have a downward effect on M coupes I don't understand. I think that argument is nonsense.

There are some very cheap z3Mc's out there because they are knackered/tatty etc and the M
Coupe did depreciate fast when it came out.

There are only about 500 Z4MC's out there in RHD. As they age, get written-off, rack up high mileages etc the number of tidy and straight ones shrink. That will mean that values for those cars will firm, creating the sort of large spread seen on Z3MC's now.

It's nothing to do with sentimentality. Nobody is under any illusion that the values of these cars is suddenly going to rocket but at the same time I don't believe good low mileage ones will fall much in value now from where they are at present.

The reason PH prices are higher is because on the whole it is enthusiasts buying off enthusiasts. In my opinion
Autotrader is full of sharks - let the buyer beware.

+1 original guv

And Exdos i think it's a bit rude to post links to other car adverts and discuss their value on the original posters for sale thread.
 
wantanM said:
+1 original guv

And Exdos i think it's a bit rude to post links to other car adverts and discuss their value on the original posters for sale thread.

I have no problem with others taking a different view to mine. :thumbsup:

I apologise to all, and particularly to Sully, if I have breached any written or unwritten forum etiquette by posting those links. I simply thought those links were relevant to the point that I was attempting to make. Sorry.
 
texasjohn said:
exdos said:
I would agree that Glasses Guide is probably the most realistic and also suggest that Parker's prices are optimistic. Both are just that, a guide.

At the end of the day, if Z4MCs are advertised at 15-16k then that is market at present despite what the guides might indicate.

However , it is not the asking price that matters , but the sale price and this will not generally be broadcast by the seller.

This car was for sale by a chap in Scotland in January via pistonheads and he sold to the dealer for more than £3k less than what it is up for sale for now - it was good value at the original sale price but much less so at the current one

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/3644665.htm
 
^ Damn, wish I had been looking two months ago then, 13.x k for an M. I'd have stretched a little beyond my budget because it has the one thing I need - ISOFIX!

I had my Z4M up for £22-23k for a good while and ended up taking 19,800 in the end, although anyone watching the advert would have seen it drop to £20k for a couple of weeks or so before it was finally sold. I think the thread is probably still on this forum somewhere.
 
Guys as stated in the first post, the for-sale section was getting a bit cluttered, plus there are some good points raised on here, it probably merits its own thread anyway.

exdos, I do think you mention a fair few interesting points.
 
exdos said:
dgm said:
Just to put some perspective on that, the boom times were already coming to an end when the Z4MC was being sold as a new car and they were very quickly heavily discounted to shift what was a very slow moving model. Very few people paid anything like the retail price on these new. I paid £12k under list for a 10 month old car in 2007 and probably still paid over the odds for it. They are definitely a bit of a niche market and rare though they are, they aren't rare enough to keep the prices up in the same fashion as the M Coupe.
You are correct. Quality cars which are expensive to buy when new have always been "bargains" when sold on the used car market, because they are perceived to be expensive to run and maintain, so the number of prospective buyers is always going to be relatively small, even in the "good times". So in the present "bad times" buyers will be much thinner on the ground. So, if most owners like yourself got their Z4 MCs at massive discount prices attempt to sell what are now 5 year old cars in the present economic climate, surely they can't expect droves of prospective buyers willing to pay relatively high used car prices, today, based on depreciation of the original list price? Owners should take a look at Glass's valuations to see what their Z4 MCs are really worth in a totally unsentimental market. They'll be in for a real shock! The problem for Z4 MC owners is that there are plenty of Z4 Coupes which will satisfy the needs of many who want the looks and image but don't need the ///M performance, whereas the Z3 MC has no base-model coupe rival, so there's no comparison. I already own a low mileage S54 Z3 MC.

Presently, there are a few Z4 MCs for sale below £15k with dealers (see Autotrader) yet most Private sellers are attempting to sell their Z4 MCs at higher than dealer prices! Since dealers offer warranties and private sellers do not, if all else is equal, purchasers are going to buy the same car from the dealer and not the private seller. It's a sad fact but many owners who need to sell are going to have to take big financial losses to move their cars on. Like it or not, a 2006 Z4 MC with average mileage is worth just £8k to £10k as a trade in, as a private sale they are worth about £2k more and a trade price add another £2k : that's £12k as a private sale, yet most private sellers are asking around £16k or more! As a prospective buyer, I'm not willing to pay £2k more than dealer prices for an unwarranted car just because the owner participates on a forum and is an "enthusiast". I expect most other prospective buyers feel the same.

Bought mine 6 months ago BMW have guaranteed me a trade value of £10,000 in october 2013.
 
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