Z4M getting some recognition
- Thread starter Wassup
- Start date
grannyknot
Member
Yes there is the engine but what about the transmission, LSD diff, all of the suspension and brakes? If you have driven both they are very different cars.pvr said:Mr Tidy said:Good to see the Z4M in 2nd place.
They've always looked like a bargain compared to E46 M3 prices!
But the e46 M3 is a beautiful car and very well finished whilst the Z4M only has the engine and nearly nothing different from a standard Z
Surprised this post hasn't stirred more opinion & discussion .
Worth noting that appears to be a US based article & it doesn't reflects the Uk stance on the cars chosen .
The E63 in any guise were a disaster out of warranty & the M version was no different , a deep wallet & blinkered vision required to own one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234652150220?hash=item36a25ba9cc:g:TWkAAOSwaaliloly&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoH%2FGmtbEj9EW%2B59DcW4%2BFene7iHs1kpVS5Dm%2FdoA9xr%2BLt753oaeG8E0RedR%2FTq8kyItJJFZv6lFIYydyYPyAwrwL7dav6ah1EizW3JmsyDocOjqBwtPA7iP5k0GuKlzsGMGNp%2BC0n6E38lB6esVzDKpehdwAZEM%2BvOa5cZS1mpysI3O6MHwn75XNulkd0FRsWFFkp3%2BDtFIil96WnFjkk4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4i_uZPYYA
The 1M is clearly one that is held in high esteem by all , same with a CSL E46 ( or even a decent E46 M3 ) which doesn't even get a mention .
The F10 M5 is one that often gets overlooked yet not crazy money & have a great build quality which can't be said of the previous gen M5s you would have to be a fool to buy the V10 E60/E61 over the V8 model for similar money .
The Z1
not a clue what these are valued at but gimicky car that hold zero allure for me at any pricepoint .
i8 :roll: has the looks & car park cred but same as the Z1 for me in terms of allure , i just see a Bmw white elephant when they could have created a " supercar " , i can still remember the feeling of being conned after my first drive in one , the doors & cabin were hard to not be taken by , it shifted to 50mph like nothing else id driven at the time & sounded fantastic but when i got down to the basic facts i was deflated , totally deflated £100k for a 1499cc Mini engine ( supercharged ) with dual electric motors & the noise of a V8 piped through the speakers to flatter the owner 
not for me i'm afraid .
The Z4M is hard not to like for what it offers but they are far from flawless & pricepoint you get into them is everything . The article suggests growing values but UK wise i don't see any change from the 1st , 2nd or 3rd Z4M i bought :? the point where the rising value overcomes the yearly / bi yearly overheads of ownership seems a long way off .
Also think the M2 & M4 were overlooked , irrespective of current market values in my eyes 2 of the best styled , best looking current crop of Bmw "M" coupes
Worth noting that appears to be a US based article & it doesn't reflects the Uk stance on the cars chosen .
The E63 in any guise were a disaster out of warranty & the M version was no different , a deep wallet & blinkered vision required to own one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234652150220?hash=item36a25ba9cc:g:TWkAAOSwaaliloly&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoH%2FGmtbEj9EW%2B59DcW4%2BFene7iHs1kpVS5Dm%2FdoA9xr%2BLt753oaeG8E0RedR%2FTq8kyItJJFZv6lFIYydyYPyAwrwL7dav6ah1EizW3JmsyDocOjqBwtPA7iP5k0GuKlzsGMGNp%2BC0n6E38lB6esVzDKpehdwAZEM%2BvOa5cZS1mpysI3O6MHwn75XNulkd0FRsWFFkp3%2BDtFIil96WnFjkk4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4i_uZPYYAThe 1M is clearly one that is held in high esteem by all , same with a CSL E46 ( or even a decent E46 M3 ) which doesn't even get a mention .
The F10 M5 is one that often gets overlooked yet not crazy money & have a great build quality which can't be said of the previous gen M5s
you would have to be a fool to buy the V10 E60/E61 over the V8 model for similar money .The Z1
not a clue what these are valued at but gimicky car that hold zero allure for me at any pricepoint .i8 :roll: has the looks & car park cred but same as the Z1 for me in terms of allure , i just see a Bmw white elephant when they could have created a " supercar " , i can still remember the feeling of being conned after my first drive in one , the doors & cabin were hard to not be taken by , it shifted to 50mph like nothing else id driven at the time & sounded fantastic but when i got down to the basic facts i was deflated , totally deflated
£100k for a 1499cc Mini engine ( supercharged ) with dual electric motors & the noise of a V8 piped through the speakers to flatter the owner not for me i'm afraid . The Z4M is hard not to like for what it offers but they are far from flawless & pricepoint you get into them is everything . The article suggests growing values but UK wise i don't see any change from the 1st , 2nd or 3rd Z4M i bought :? the point where the rising value overcomes the yearly / bi yearly overheads of ownership seems a long way off .
Also think the M2 & M4 were overlooked , irrespective of current market values in my eyes 2 of the best styled , best looking current crop of Bmw "M" coupes
I really hope they do appreciate but I struggle to see it happening. The market has pretty much been standstill for years. Coupes values have increased slightly.
I think that the overheads are an issue the Z4M will face. Big job bills and general maintenance take up quite a lot of resource. Ive certainly spent about 1/3 of the cars value on maintenance but it seems not to add any value but people are hesitant to buy without. Every for sale thread is full of it.
Certainly a predicament I find myself thinking about with no 'value added' I would rather put it into other assets like the house etc.
The only thing that makes me keep on spending money is A, I like it B, they are rare owners are custodians really. But might be kidding myself there.
Add tax increase, general maintenance, fuel cost etc these as propositions are getting really quite expensive.
You've got to really love these cars to spend the money.
So I think apart from the following on the forum some might start to fall into a bit of disrepair like the E46 M3 did but these have seen significant value increases. A 60k miler M3 is a 30-35k car now so it's easier to stomach those bills. The same car 10 years ago would have been worth 10k.
I think that the overheads are an issue the Z4M will face. Big job bills and general maintenance take up quite a lot of resource. Ive certainly spent about 1/3 of the cars value on maintenance but it seems not to add any value but people are hesitant to buy without. Every for sale thread is full of it.
Certainly a predicament I find myself thinking about with no 'value added' I would rather put it into other assets like the house etc.
The only thing that makes me keep on spending money is A, I like it B, they are rare owners are custodians really. But might be kidding myself there.
Add tax increase, general maintenance, fuel cost etc these as propositions are getting really quite expensive.
You've got to really love these cars to spend the money.
So I think apart from the following on the forum some might start to fall into a bit of disrepair like the E46 M3 did but these have seen significant value increases. A 60k miler M3 is a 30-35k car now so it's easier to stomach those bills. The same car 10 years ago would have been worth 10k.
I don't think these cars are necessarily more high-maintenance than others of a comparable vintage and power/performance level. They don't suffer from the corrosion that my E39 M5 did for example. The S54 is fundamentally robust and suspension parts are cheap and easy to replace. My Z4M is proving cheaper than my 2005 Clio to run, albeit that's because I'm happy to DIY the E85 whereas I pay somebody to work on the (much less DIY friendly) old Renault.
£630 VED is definitely a barrier, even though you can make a rational argument that it's not really that much extra money especially if you SORN for part of the year.
The issue is that most other cars of a comparable vintage and power/performance level are worth more, making the man maths harder when you're constantly evaluating spend on upkeep as a proportion of the car's value.
And people who are willing and able to stomach the costs that come with any car of this type are typically wanting a more conventionally aspirational and well-recognised choice, and are able to spend more on the purchase price. The Z4M suffers from a poor reputation as a driver's car both from professional reviews when it was launched, and from online comments from previous owners. Whereas the E46 M3 has always been a halo model and seen as the epitome of NA ///M alongside the E39 M5. Among enthusiasts there is lot more immediate credibility to be had if you rock up to a meet in either of the above than in a Z4M.
Of course those in the know are aware that the flaws in the Z4M can be sorted with a few small tweaks, but most people won't get far and will dismiss it out of hand.
£630 VED is definitely a barrier, even though you can make a rational argument that it's not really that much extra money especially if you SORN for part of the year.
The issue is that most other cars of a comparable vintage and power/performance level are worth more, making the man maths harder when you're constantly evaluating spend on upkeep as a proportion of the car's value.
And people who are willing and able to stomach the costs that come with any car of this type are typically wanting a more conventionally aspirational and well-recognised choice, and are able to spend more on the purchase price. The Z4M suffers from a poor reputation as a driver's car both from professional reviews when it was launched, and from online comments from previous owners. Whereas the E46 M3 has always been a halo model and seen as the epitome of NA ///M alongside the E39 M5. Among enthusiasts there is lot more immediate credibility to be had if you rock up to a meet in either of the above than in a Z4M.
Of course those in the know are aware that the flaws in the Z4M can be sorted with a few small tweaks, but most people won't get far and will dismiss it out of hand.
I agree with the above as the general scene, however, is interesting to see that people find the E46 more of an experience, whereas is the other way around, the Z4M is more special from many angles, looks, seating position, driving characteristics, etc. And even if from a driving performance stand point the E46 is better, what does that do anyway, most owners don't track the cars, so if one is 1-2 seconds faster, they won't find out for themselves. but this is the world we live in I guess. For me, it would be the Z4M over the E46 as a sports car toy.
I do agree that the low-slung driving position and 2-seater convertible form factor impart a specialness and sense of occasion. But there's no denying the E46 is a far superior handling car out of the box. It's not at all about chasing lap times, but being engaging and rewarding for the keen driver. The E46 despite being heavier is better balanced and the spring rates and damping are far better optimised. It's a car that delivers at all levels whereas the OEM Z4M is a nice 7/10ths cruiser but falls apart when you push it really hard, even if it is probably equally as quick around a track. But as above, it's easy to get the E85 driving as it should.
1. Replace OEM struts and springs with coilovers or a Bilstein/Eibach kit that stiffens the front and softens the rear spring rates, with damping to match.
2. Reduce toe-in and add camber front and rear.
A more detailed writeup
2. Reduce toe-in and add camber front and rear.
A more detailed writeup
OK that sounds easy but v costly. At least for me.
Is there any benefit to be had from firmer bushes like selective use of poly? My car is low miles at about 40k but probably needs new bushes. On the non m z3 I added poly rear beam bushes and z3m front control arm lolly pops along with new bilsteins and the rest new factory rubber bushes but that car is 10 years older. It made an amazing difference along with a larger rear sway bar from z3 3.0 coupe.
Do you think a 2007m with 40k on the clock would need new bushes? If so where would it be appropriate to use poly. I understand z3s but am a newbie when it comes to z4ms
Is there any benefit to be had from firmer bushes like selective use of poly? My car is low miles at about 40k but probably needs new bushes. On the non m z3 I added poly rear beam bushes and z3m front control arm lolly pops along with new bilsteins and the rest new factory rubber bushes but that car is 10 years older. It made an amazing difference along with a larger rear sway bar from z3 3.0 coupe.
Do you think a 2007m with 40k on the clock would need new bushes? If so where would it be appropriate to use poly. I understand z3s but am a newbie when it comes to z4ms
BC coilovers or Bilstein/Eibach kit: £900 (can look out for people on here selling lightly used or unused which come up fairly regularly)
Rear trailing arm bushes (RTABs): £75
Front wishbones and ball joints: £150
Lollipop bushes: £80
You'd might as well replace a few more bushes and the tie rods while you're in there, but the above alone should make a huge difference. It's a simple job that does not require a specialist. Find a competent mechanic with a reasonable hourly rate and you can likely get everything fitted for £300-400. Throw in another £80 for an alignment and you're looking at £1,500-£1,600 in total.
I personally would replace 15-year-old rubber bushes regardless of mileage as it's inexpensive to do so, especially if you're not happy with the way the car drives. I'm not a fan of poly bushes for a road car but I did opt for Powerflex for the the RTABs simply because they were much easier for me to fit (the OEM rubber items require a specific pre-loading install method). If you do go with rubber for the RTABs, make sure to install aftermarket limiters. Lots of info online on this.
Rear trailing arm bushes (RTABs): £75
Front wishbones and ball joints: £150
Lollipop bushes: £80
You'd might as well replace a few more bushes and the tie rods while you're in there, but the above alone should make a huge difference. It's a simple job that does not require a specialist. Find a competent mechanic with a reasonable hourly rate and you can likely get everything fitted for £300-400. Throw in another £80 for an alignment and you're looking at £1,500-£1,600 in total.
I personally would replace 15-year-old rubber bushes regardless of mileage as it's inexpensive to do so, especially if you're not happy with the way the car drives. I'm not a fan of poly bushes for a road car but I did opt for Powerflex for the the RTABs simply because they were much easier for me to fit (the OEM rubber items require a specific pre-loading install method). If you do go with rubber for the RTABs, make sure to install aftermarket limiters. Lots of info online on this.
Sajk said:
I think it all depends on weather conditions, my car is 82k kms and 15 years old, yet the bushings are tight, but is a car that has not seen a lot of rain, heat, and salt. my suspension is tight as a drum and some of the bushings I have changed, I did more for upgrading or renewal. so, review, inspect, and assess. going poly will just make the car unnecessarily stiff without much benefit. Keep the OE suspension and refresh what needs to. The car is stiff as is, and adding uprated shocks and springs will make it worse. I have coil overs and the car is indeed stiffer and less compliant from an NVH standpoint. but that is the price for "sportier" suspension. if I was to do it again, I would just do B6 shocks and keep stock springs, then refresh worn-out bushings, and do a custom alignment and put decent rubber.
My car came fitted with H & R coil-overs that were only a few months old so I've kept them but they are really firm and only adjust for ride height. If/when they need changing I'd probably go for OE or if I was feeling flush KWs with adjustable compression and rebound!
When I needed new engine mounts Ross at RBM (bowser134 on here) recommended OE rather than Vibra-Technics for a road car - same with poly-bushes.
After raising the ride height, removing spacers and going back to 18" wheels from 19s I had a 4 wheel alignment last year to E46 M3 CSL settings and my car was transformed.
When I needed new engine mounts Ross at RBM (bowser134 on here) recommended OE rather than Vibra-Technics for a road car - same with poly-bushes.
After raising the ride height, removing spacers and going back to 18" wheels from 19s I had a 4 wheel alignment last year to E46 M3 CSL settings and my car was transformed.
The OEM spring rates are all wrong.
Due to the low ride height the progressive springs operate close to their end rates much of the time. The result is a strange combination of the front end being too soft, contributing to understeer, poor turn-in and a general woolly feeling, while the rear end is too hard and is under-damped, which is why the primary ride on OEM suspension is so poor.
A rear spring rate that is so significantly stiffer than the front creates a sensation of the front and rear being disconnected, as if you are driving halves of two different cars that have been spliced together.
Most aftermarket suspension fixes this. To use BC coilovers as an example, the default springs are linear and 335 lbs/in F and 560 lbs/in R (you can specify stiffer fronts if you wish). The stiffer front springs tighten up the feel considerably, while the rears are actually softer than OEM which means a more compliant ride than OEM and a more planted rear. And the F/R rates are much more closely matched leading to a much more cohesive drive.
Due to the low ride height the progressive springs operate close to their end rates much of the time. The result is a strange combination of the front end being too soft, contributing to understeer, poor turn-in and a general woolly feeling, while the rear end is too hard and is under-damped, which is why the primary ride on OEM suspension is so poor.
A rear spring rate that is so significantly stiffer than the front creates a sensation of the front and rear being disconnected, as if you are driving halves of two different cars that have been spliced together.
Most aftermarket suspension fixes this. To use BC coilovers as an example, the default springs are linear and 335 lbs/in F and 560 lbs/in R (you can specify stiffer fronts if you wish). The stiffer front springs tighten up the feel considerably, while the rears are actually softer than OEM which means a more compliant ride than OEM and a more planted rear. And the F/R rates are much more closely matched leading to a much more cohesive drive.
