Would you change your vote ?

[exdos]

So, if the EU offered back control of our borders, concessions on our subscriptions & other things just so we remain... would you consider changing your mind?

No.

If you've read my earlier postings in this thread you would be correct to deduce that I think that the EU project is an attempt at total domination of the whole of the European peoples by economic and social means. The EU is yet another attempt at German domination of Europe.

I see it somewhat analogous to Beatrix Potter's Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck where the EU is the Sandy Whiskered Gentleman.

 

[Jembo]

So, if the EU offered back control of our borders, concessions on our subscriptions & other things just so we remain... would you consider changing your mind?

No.

If you've read my earlier postings in this thread you would be correct to deduce that I think that the EU project is an attempt at total domination of the whole of the European peoples by economic and social means. The EU is yet another attempt at German domination of Europe.

I see it somewhat analogous to Beatrix Potter's Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck where the EU is the Sandy Whiskered Gentleman.

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

 

[Smartbear]

So, if the EU offered back control of our borders, concessions on our subscriptions & other things just so we remain... would you consider changing your mind?

No.

If you've read my earlier postings in this thread you would be correct to deduce that I think that the EU project is an attempt at total domination of the whole of the European peoples by economic and social means. The EU is yet another attempt at German domination of Europe.

I see it somewhat analogous to Beatrix Potter's Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck where the EU is the Sandy Whiskered Gentleman.

I prefer the animal farm analogy, “all animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others”
Rob

 

[exdos]

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

 

[ronk]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

 

[firebobby]

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

My thoughts exactly :happyclap:

 

[Vornwend]

In 2016 (last published data that I could find) the UK was the third largest contributor at 13.5% behind France 16.6% and Germany 19%

There is almost an infinite number of different ways of calculating the contributions made to the EU by each of the member states. In my earlier posting where I stated that the UK is the second biggest contributor I used the information provided here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm under the "Net Contributions" button.

The accepted way of measuring our contribution is after the rebate has been applied. The UK actually nets this off before making payments so that makes sense. Your link relates to data that is 11 years out of date. Mine was much more recent https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

 

[exdos]

The accepted way of measuring our contribution is after the rebate has been applied. The UK actually nets this off before making payments so that makes sense. Your link relates to data that is 11 years out of date. Mine was much more recent https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

You're correct on the years of figures but my point is still the same. EU contributions can be calculated in a host of different ways where even Greece is the biggest relative contributor. But as I've said previously there's a lot more to Brexit (and the EU) than the Economy.

The bigger point is the agenda and Trojan Horse that is the EU. The peoples of Europe are being herded like sheep as part of a master plan:
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

Jean Monnet (Founding Father Of The EU in a letter to a friend 30th April 1952). Winner of the Charlemagne Prize 1953

You can fool most of the people most of the time...

 

[Mr Tidy]

exdos wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:08 pm
Jembo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:57 pm
Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.


I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

My thoughts exactly

Yes, that's exactly how I feel about it too!

 

[sp3ctre]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

Nobody is saying the economy won’t take a hit, of course it will. The point is many, including me, think it will be worth it in the long term. Anyone who thinks there will be no hit at all is dillusional. My vote is for my son’s future, not for mine.

 

[Jembo]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

Nobody is saying the economy won’t take a hit, of course it will. The point is many, including me, think it will be worth it in the long term. Anyone who thinks there will be no hit at all is dillusional. My vote is for my son’s future, not for mine.

I doubt any of the remainers for one minute question your motives, we are all looking for what’s best for the U.K.

I find the mutual respect behind good business (& friendship) is collaboration, cooperation & certainty, where once you have all 3 together you create trust.

We have fundamentally broken the EU’s trust... & as it so happens historically broken agreements all over the world time & time again, but that’s another matter. I for one & most I know avoid those I don’t trust.

This is where I have the concern as already within the EU, Africa & Asia more & more people are becoming stand offish & critical... & this perception will do more harm than good - if you think time will heal this rift, there are many examples where it has only got worse.

I believe the EU will no doubt continue to trade with us, thought they will always remember this, so you have to ask why would they want to agree the best deals, as likely they’ll only agree those where it suits them.

All in the lap if the Gods now...

 

[Vornwend]

I find it interesting that several people are mentioning loss of cultural differences as a reason to leave. Have we got any practical examples of that or is it just a vague (dare I say nebulous) feeling? The world has changed so much and so fast in the last 50 years and become much more inter connected - for me the far greater threat to our cultures is the rise of multi national/global organisations and social media that, unlike politicians, are accountable to almost no one. They are happy to divide and rule where they can and see powerful bodies like the EU that seek to limit their power to exploit us as a threat - if there is a conspiracy at play here its that.

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

 

[Vornwend]

I doubt any of the remainers for one minute question your motives, we are all looking for what’s best for the U.K.

I find the mutual respect behind good business (& friendship) is collaboration, cooperation & certainty, where once you have all 3 together you create trust.

We have fundamentally broken the EU’s trust... & as it so happens historically broken agreements all over the world time & time again, but that’s another matter. I for one & most I know avoid those I don’t trust.

This is where I have the concern as already within the EU, Africa & Asia more & more people are becoming stand offish & critical... & this perception will do more harm than good - if you think time will heal this rift, there are many examples where it has only got worse.

I believe the EU will no doubt continue to trade with us, thought they will always remember this, so you have to ask why would they want to agree the best deals, as likely they’ll only agree those where it suits them.

I echo all that

 

[MrPT]

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

This is where I stand and why I voted differently to my parents. I can appreciate why they feel that the EU is a failed experiment and that it's very difficult for me to grasp the context in which they originally voted "in", but there is a philosophical difference between us that is irreconcilable. The whole sentiment behind it goes against the way I try and tackle most problems in work and my personal life (with the possible exception of being charged at by an axe wielding psychopath), and this is a trait I see in them too which is why it's very difficult to accept how they voted, but I've learnt that it's best to just agree to disagree in order to keep the peace.

The thing that some people here seem to have a good handle on, which I struggle with, is the extent to which social union is required in order to make an economic union a success. It's such a complex problem space. It would be amazing if our government could direct its energies into helping the layman digest the complexities of questions such as this, which are really fundamental to the whole debate, but endless postulating and self-serving nonsense seem to have taken hold! :x

 

[exdos]

I find it interesting that several people are mentioning loss of cultural differences as a reason to leave. Have we got any practical examples of that or is it just a vague (dare I say nebulous) feeling? The world has changed so much and so fast in the last 50 years and become much more inter connected - for me the far greater threat to our cultures is the rise of multi national/global organisations and social media that, unlike politicians, are accountable to almost no one. They are happy to divide and rule where they can and see powerful bodies like the EU that seek to limit their power to exploit us as a threat - if there is a conspiracy at play here its that.

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

I was raised in a large Lancashire town in the 1950-60s which now looks like its sits within a foreign country due to mass immigration. I left in 1970, but I can imagine that many people who still live there, and many similar places like it, would tell you that mass uncontrolled immigration is THE reason why the UK voted for Brexit. My relatives who still live there hate it.

The UK electorate has never been permitted any involvement in debate on such huge cultural change and the EU has insisted upon Freedom of Movement as being one of its 4 pillars which created a further wave of mass immigration from Eastern Europe.

The Brexit Referendum was the first opportunity the UK electorate has had to register any kind of protest on immigration or European integration in the UK and so, to me, it's not at all surprising that ordinary working people of all ages should vote as they did.

It's quite clear from the riots against immigration in Brussels yesterday and in Germany in recent times, that it's not just the older generations that resent the cultural changes imposed upon us by the "elites" because it's the young disaffected who take to the streets whilst the older generations have bitten their tongues for so long.

 

[sp3ctre]

A health service and benefits system like ours is simply incompatible with free movement. I'm pretty sure if you carved up all aspects of the EU in an "a la carte" (yup, I see the irony of using a French phrase in a Brexit rant!, lol) fashion then I believe most people would not wish to keep free movement.

The EU should have always been about trade agreements. No wonder people get fed up with new countries getting added and being paid vast sums of money, and all they have to agree to is to behave themselves and not start wars.

 

[exdos]

My wife and I visited Slovenia about a month ago. Slovenia has been in the EU since 2004 and has considerably benefitted on a financial level from being in the EU partly from UK contributions. Because very few people outside Slovenia speak any of their languages they don't suffer from mass immigration although the country is nearer to the Eastern European countries whose citizens choose to move to the UK in preference.

We also visited Norway 8 months ago and there are many economic migrants from all corners of the EU working there because the lingua franca is English and the pay is much higher than in their home countries. None of the immigrants need to learn the Norwegian language to successfully work in Norway. However, Norway uses the Norwegian language as the only official language where they don't even bother to give information in English in museums/galleries and all levels of Norwegian administration is conducted in Norwegian. As such, immigrants can only do servile types of work and the Norwegian nationals keep all the best jobs for themselves and integration isn't really available for immigrants.

It's clear to me that the effects of EU policy have different effects in different parts of the EU, and that the UK suffers most as a consequence of the English language. Since the EU failed to recognise that the UK is a magnet to immigration and refused to permit us control from free movement it is the EU that is totally responsible for the Brexit vote.

 

[firebobby]

It's clear to me that the effects of EU policy have different effects in different parts of the EU, and that the UK suffers most as a consequence of the English language. Since the EU failed to recognise that the UK is a magnet to immigration and refused to permit us control from free movement it is the EU that is totally responsible for the Brexit vote.

And Tony Toss pot Blair :thumbsdown:

 

[Vornwend]

All the points about immigration ignore the fact that it has been hugely beneficial for this country.They pay far more in taxes than they receive in benefits (about £20bn per year is the estimate). If we wish to reduce levels of immigration then we must accept that we will all be economically worse off. Like many countries in the western world we suffer from an ageing population. Immigrants sustain the NHS, the social care sector and many other industries. The reason people choose to move to the UK is because there are jobs that need filling. Unemployment levels are at historically low levels so you can't even ague they are taking UK citizens jobs. Freedom of movement is only incompatible with a health system if governments fail to plan properly

Its not very well known but the European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, already allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. We could have used that but successive governments have chosen not to do so because they know that immigration has been of huge benefit to this country.

I was raised in a large Lancashire town in the 1950-60s which now looks like its sits within a foreign country due to mass immigration. I left in 1970, but I can imagine that many people who still live there, and many similar places like it, would tell you that mass uncontrolled immigration is THE reason why the UK voted for Brexit. My relatives who still live there hate it.

I am sure you are right to assert that immigration was the main reason the UK voted to leave. I am equally sure that many of those peoples lives would be worse without the contribution that immigrants make to their lives. Interested to know why your relatives hate the immigrants in Lancashire?

 

[exdos]

I am sure you are right to assert that immigration was the main reason the UK voted to leave. I am equally sure that many of those peoples lives would be worse without the contribution that immigrants make to their lives. Interested to know why your relatives hate the immigrants in Lancashire?

They don't hate immigrants, i.e. the people that have come to the UK, they simply hate the mass immigration policy and the difference it has made to the region. I suspect that is the same in many other regions which have been inundated by different cultures without them having any say whatsoever over the changes it makes to their lives.

My niece has to send her children to schools out of her district because the local school is full. My niece's daughter, aged 6, is one of just 3 children in her class who was born in the district. Do you and your sons think that's a benefit of immigration?