Would you change your vote ?

[andyf1140]

My point exactly.



The speaker didnt actually make a ruling it was only technically a statement to the house.

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Would we be be repeatedly given the chance to vote again until they got the original verdict reversed?
What happens if leave wins again, best of 3? :?
Rob

That’s not the point Rob.

Given Westminster can’t agree & considering everyone’s now more informed the people must tell them what to do
- Go for no deal
- Accept May’s deal on basis of next 60 days
- Remain

... where no deal/Mays option votes are added together & where more than remain go for highest of 2 leave options

That’s people democracy

The whole thing was a cockup from the start, arrogance lead the "ruling class" to devise a flawed referendum because they thought no-one would vote leave! and they didn't think about what would happen if they did

 

[Smartbear]

My point exactly.



The speaker didnt actually make a ruling it was only technically a statement to the house.

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Would we be be repeatedly given the chance to vote again until they got the original verdict reversed?
What happens if leave wins again, best of 3? :?
Rob

That’s not the point Rob.

Given Westminster can’t agree & considering everyone’s now more informed the people must tell them what to do
- Go for no deal
- Accept May’s deal on basis of next 60 days
- Remain

... where no deal/Mays option votes are added together & where more than remain go for highest of 2 leave options

That’s people democracy

But that’s exactly the point Jembo, the people have already told them what they want to do.
Now they have to sort it out, not keep asking us in the hope of getting the answer they desire.
Rob

 

[PerryGunn]

But that’s exactly the point Jembo, the people have already told them what they want to do.
Now they have to sort it out, not keep asking us in the hope of getting the answer they desire.
Rob

...but that's the European way Rob, if the proles don't vote the way their masters want, they have to have another go at getting the 'right' result... (Ireland with the Treaty of Lisbon and the Treaty of Nice, Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty)

 

[RustyZ4]

But that’s exactly the point Jembo, the people have already told them what they want to do.
Now they have to sort it out, not keep asking us in the hope of getting the answer they desire.
Rob

...but that's the European way Rob, if the proles don't vote the way their masters want, they have to have another go at getting the 'right' result... (Ireland with the Treaty of Lisbon and the Treaty of Nice, Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty)

I thought it was the Mugabe way, keep having a vote till you get the result you want

 

[john-e89]

:yawn:

 

[RustyZ4]

 

[stupot1]

Both sides told lies.
Europe doesn't want us to go because of the domino effect it'll cause with Countries wanting out.
Our wonderful Politicians from all parties are jockeying for position, all self interest ofcourse.
It was never going to be easy but it's been a balls up.
All that being said.
A vote is a vote, that's it, they need to stop thinking about thereselves and get on with it!
They won't do it mind.

 

[Flyingfifer]

When the goons in Westminster after almost 3 years are incapable of agreeing even a pissup in a brewery, has to be put back to the people.

When you ask for something, you normally have s plan... at the moment that plan is just leave & believe everything will be ok.

I think you need to look at history to see just how many fekups have occurred trusting in people on this basis

My point exactly.

That's exactly what the speaker ruled against, unless the plan contains material differences it cannot be put to a 3rd vote

The speaker didnt actually make a ruling it was only technically a statement to the house.

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Would we be be repeatedly given the chance to vote again until they got the original verdict reversed?
What happens if leave wins again, best of 3? :?
Rob

I've always found this argument to be asinine and unbelievably reductive.

If I ask you to let me hit you for £50million then when you say yes I bring out my Claymore and start lining up a swing at your neck I'm sure you would love the opportunity to decide again now that you have a more complete understanding as to what you're actually agreeing to.

Brexit is the exact same, the lies that were flying around (or driving in the case of the £350million for the NHS bus) were unreal! Then when you take into account that the swing that would be needed (based on the result) is just 634,751 votes out of a voting population of 46,000,000.....

Ultimately if the leavers are so confident that leave won fair and square and that if anything support has grown then whats the issue?

Brexit Referendum 2 with 2 questions (Leave the EU - Y/N and If we leave leave with no deal - Y/N) would solve a swathe of issues and give a spine to a currently neutered parliament.

 

[Jembo]

Both sides told lies.
Europe doesn't want us to go because of the domino effect it'll cause with Countries wanting out.
Our wonderful Politicians from all parties are jockeying for position, all self interest ofcourse.
It was never going to be easy but it's been a balls up.
All that being said.
A vote is a vote, that's it, they need to stop thinking about thereselves and get on with it!
They won't do it mind.

The vote was to leave with a better deal - my mum voted to leave on that basis.

With a worse deal agreed than what we have now & just empty words of trust in the politicians to sort the rest out, believes is one of her worst decisions ever.

 

[Vornwend]

My point exactly.



The speaker didnt actually make a ruling it was only technically a statement to the house.

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Would we be be repeatedly given the chance to vote again until they got the original verdict reversed?
What happens if leave wins again, best of 3? :?
Rob

I've always found this argument to be asinine and unbelievably reductive.

If I ask you to let me hit you for £50million then when you say yes I bring out my Claymore and start lining up a swing at your neck I'm sure you would love the opportunity to decide again now that you have a more complete understanding as to what you're actually agreeing to.

Brexit is the exact same, the lies that were flying around (or driving in the case of the £350million for the NHS bus) were unreal! Then when you take into account that the swing that would be needed (based on the result) is just 634,751 votes out of a voting population of 46,000,000.....

Ultimately if the leavers are so confident that leave won fair and square and that if anything support has grown then whats the issue?

Brexit Referendum 2 with 2 questions (Leave the EU - Y/N and If we leave leave with no deal - Y/N) would solve a swathe of issues and give a spine to a currently neutered parliament.

Perfectly put. I quite like your referendum questions too! Sense is dawning but maybe too late to save remain. If we don't get a second vote a sensible Brexit, which limits the damage we are doing to ourselves, may yet emerge.

 

[Z4C_er]

OK, I'll weigh in. Here is the leaflet that was posted to everyone. It recommended clearly that we should remain. Read it. The thing is, all the remainers are crying that they were told lies and that the leave camp created a better proposition. I can't recall seeing a Government leaflet issued to us to leave, did you? The easy to read version is first, then the detailed version (there was even two....)
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

[Mr Tidy]

I've always found this argument to be asinine and unbelievably reductive.

If I ask you to let me hit you for £50million then when you say yes I bring out my Claymore and start lining up a swing at your neck I'm sure you would love the opportunity to decide again now that you have a more complete understanding as to what you're actually agreeing to.

Brexit is the exact same, the lies that were flying around (or driving in the case of the £350million for the NHS bus) were unreal! Then when you take into account that the swing that would be needed (based on the result) is just 634,751 votes out of a voting population of 46,000,000.....

Ultimately if the leavers are so confident that leave won fair and square and that if anything support has grown then whats the issue?

Brexit Referendum 2 with 2 questions (Leave the EU - Y/N and If we leave leave with no deal - Y/N) would solve a swathe of issues and give a spine to a currently neutered parliament.

Sorry, but I find the whole concept of another vote patronising in the extreme - we had a vote, there was a result. Now our "representatives" just need to deliver what we want - that's what they were elected for!

If that means No Deal then so be it - that would certainly give the EU something to think about.

But we could do with having a leader who could negotiate their way out of a soggy paper bag.

 

[PerryGunn]

Ultimately if the leavers are so confident that leave won fair and square and that if anything support has grown then whats the issue?

..and if we follow that principal, next time there's a General Election, why can't the losing party say 'If you're so confident you won, let's hold another election to confirm it...'

Whenever there's been a referendum, the losing side has always said something along the lines of 'they didn't understand', 'lies were told' or 'people would change their minds if they had to vote again' but, if there was a second vote on the subject and it swung the other way, there would be huge numbers of people saying 'we won the first time', 'we were cheated', 'we need another vote'... and the side that won the second vote would object to a further poll...

What happens then... Best of 3 referendum results... Best of 5....?

...Oh, that way madness lies... (poor old Shakespeare, he'd be spinning in his grave if he knew how often he was quoted just because someone needed a pithy phrase...)

This is why there are so few 'meaningful' referenda, the political classes really don't like the sh1t that follows, they'd much rather we did as we were told - after all, they really do know what's best for us...

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government... except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…


:wink:

 

[Vornwend]

Its clear many leavers have doubled down on their views since the referendum- partly, I'm sure, as a result of feeling insulted. That's a pity because we should hold the Brexiteer conmen in contempt and have compassion for those who were conned. Brexit has broken politics and split the nation (perhaps even precipitated the eventual break up of the UK) - a price worth paying to distance ourselves from the "enemy" who were really our friends all along?

Its easy to sneer at politicians and experts, people who spend their lives immersed in the detail and of course, as in any walk of life, there are good and bad eggs amongst them. I like this quote from Issac Asimov who saw the same thing happening in the USA

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"

I hope (and believe) that the younger generation will take us back in when they get the chance

 

[MrPT]

Ultimately if the leavers are so confident that leave won fair and square and that if anything support has grown then whats the issue?

..and if we follow that principal, next time there's a General Election, why can't the losing party say 'If you're so confident you won, let's hold another election to confirm it...'

I get the sentiment behind your point, but this isn’t the best analogy because if a government fails to form and/or win confidence after a general election, then there are grounds for another election.

 

[Smartbear]

Its clear many leavers have doubled down on their views since the referendum- partly, I'm sure, as a result of feeling insulted. That's a pity because we should hold the Brexiteer conmen in contempt and have compassion for those who were conned. Brexit has broken politics and split the nation (perhaps even precipitated the eventual break up of the UK) - a price worth paying to distance ourselves from the "enemy" who were really our friends all along?

Its easy to sneer at politicians and experts, people who spend their lives immersed in the detail and of course, as in any walk of life, there are good and bad eggs amongst them. I like this quote from Issac Asimov who saw the same thing happening in the USA

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"

I hope (and believe) that the younger generation will take us back in when they get the chance

It seems that you cannot accept any wrongdoing on the part of the remain camp after reading your post.
Both sides were at fault, do you not remember “project fear”?
Rob

 

[original guvnor]

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Sorry but that's nonsense. You, nor I (or anyone else on this Forum for that matter) have any idea of the ACTUAL ramifications of leaving, nor do any of the so-called experts who have been littering our TV screens for the last 2.5 years. It's all speculation, scare-mongering or promises depending on your viewpoint. You either believe in the federal Europe project or you don't. Either way, there's a decent future for the country ahead of us but it's up to us to make it happen and not behave like spineless pathetic hand-wringers.

 

[firebobby]

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Sorry but that's nonsense. You, nor I (or anyone else on this Forum for that matter) have any idea of the ACTUAL ramifications of leaving, nor do any of the so-called experts who have been littering our TV screens for the last 2.5 years. It's all speculation, scare-mongering or promises depending on your viewpoint. You either believe in the federal Europe project or you don't. Either way, there's a decent future for the country ahead of us but it's up to us to make it happen and not behave like spineless pathetic hand-wringers.

Here here :happyclap: :happyclap:

 

[Jembo]

A 2nd ref would also have material differences, primarily a far better understanding in people of the real world ramifications of a vote to leave.

Sorry but that's nonsense. You, nor I (or anyone else on this Forum for that matter) have any idea of the ACTUAL ramifications of leaving, nor do any of the so-called experts who have been littering our TV screens for the last 2.5 years. It's all speculation, scare-mongering or promises depending on your viewpoint. You either believe in the federal Europe project or you don't. Either way, there's a decent future for the country ahead of us but it's up to us to make it happen and not behave like spineless pathetic hand-wringers.

Here here :happyclap: :happyclap:

Forget who’s for or against... in less than 60 days it’s highly unlikely those in Westminster will have reached an agreement.

This is doing far more damage than good so those who govern need grabbing by the scruf of the neck & told... whatever the majority consensus of the people is.

 

[TitanTim]

NO I would still vote to stay in, this country is slowly self destructing. Yes I'm looking forward to the inner city rioting, job losses, more businesses relocating abroad and it goes on,

What must the rest of the world think.

At least they have some comedy viewing,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbTbgQAGntQ

Laughing stock is perhaps the operative word.

Tim.