Why didn't M's come as Auto?

[GuidoK]

unless you are over 65 or physically impaired in some way!

Maybe that's the case?

 

[mad4slalom]

some may remember when i first got my mc , i hated the gearbox with a passion, some on here advised the cdv delete and change fluid to amsoil, others said i would just get used to it. as bad as it was I never once wished i had an auto box. i did the cdv and fluid , a huge difference ,but over the three months since , it has become almost as good as any other box,I guess i am now fully used to it, (wether i would have just got used to it without the cdv delete, I dont know,) i absolutely love it. to my mind an auto in the M would detract from the hard core pure driving machine, some on here say the m should have been available with an auto, nay nay thrice nay, I say !!! they made it available in the 3.0 for a reason, so the M remained as it was designed to be, a proper sports , drivers car, built to test and thrill the driver,,and not blur the margins by compromise turning it in to a southern softee semi grand tourer, god bless the M devision for sticking to their brief. :evil:

 

[inkey$]

This sums things up nicely...

"At first glance, whether standing still or moving, its shape immediately telegraphs its purpose. There’s no mistaking the Coupe for anything other than a serious enthusiast’s car. M Drivers, you will absolutely love it!

It has maximum presence on the road. The car handles like a big go-kart. The steering is very precise and provides great feedback. The engine sounds so sweet above 4,000 rpm that you’ll want to rev it all the time. The seating position is low; the M sports seats are very comfortable. The steering wheel is nice and thick and easy to hold. The shifter is perfectly positioned and delivers short, precise shifting.

The Z4 M Coupe is the epitome of a race car built for the road rather than a road car built into a race car."

Original BMW USA launch PDF here...

http://resource.bmwusa.com/pdf_af444309-e90c-47ca-97b8-dc8ba83a6da1.arox

This PH article is good too...(Stuart, you'll like it as its red )

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=100&i=14400

My favourite lines...

"There is no SMG option and that’s somehow fitting, the Z4M feels like a brutal, old school muscle car and there’s no place for the semi-automatic technology here. There’s a visceral pleasure in shoving the clutch, and unleashing the next wave of acceleration as part of a fluid mechanical process. This is an involving drive in a way the higher tech M cars can’t hope to match."

 

[Franzino]

I think the answer to the question is:- that there wasn't room (without much fettling) to fit the SMG gearbox from the M3 into the Z4M. I seem to recall that being offered as an explanation some years ago.

Yes I believe this is the correct answer, just like when the Z3M couldn't have the 6 speed manual fitted.

100% correct... De Z4M also has another manual gearbox then a E46 M3. The manual gearbox of an E46 M3 does not fit and so an SMG would also not fit a Z4M....

 

[Franzino]

I can't believe how negative some are about autos. The Z4MC would be so much better as an auto.

Autos are now so good that there is just no point in choosing manual if auto is available.

As good as my DCT is, you simply don't feel as in control, and you don't always get the gear you want, when you want it. There's nothing in the way with a Manual, if you want a gear, you get it, right when you want it. Shift speed is irrelevant when it comes to feeling the car and having fun...

Indeed, a manual is slower then a DCT...on the street and on the track...everywhere. But some people don't care about that and find chancing gears themselves more fun... More efficient, does not alway mean more fun. Same with al the driver aids, some are really efficient. Look at all the tech in a Nissan GTR; I drove one for a day...it was massively fast...but it felt like I was driving a big computer who did everything for me and the drivers involvement was lower then on other slower cars.

 

[Franzino]

If my ///MC was auto/SMG I'd not have bought it. Am after the full driving experience and for me, that means mixing it up with a nice, typically BMW notchy stick shift.

Heard a lot of bad things about the SMG in E46 M3s too. And if they go wrong on you it's catastrophic on the wallet.

+1

 

[GuidoK]

so an SMG would also not fit a Z4M....

That's not true; you could fit the smg from the z4. The z4m manual is the same as the normal z4 (even ratio's), so it would probably swap 1:1 I think (electronic adaptation needed off course)

 

[Franzino]

so an SMG would also not fit a Z4M....

That's not true; you could fit the smg from the z4. The z4m manual is the same as the normal z4 (even ratio's), so it would probably swap 1:1 I think (electronic adaptation needed off course)

Is the SMG from a normal Z4, the same type as the SMG in a e46 M3? If the SMG was a direct fit, then BMW would have probably done it...I think

 

[GuidoK]

No, the z4 smg is based upon the GS6S37BZ box, just like the manual from both the z4 and z4m.
The SMG from the e46 is based upon the S6S 420G box.
The e46m has both a different manual as a different smg than the z4 (and z4m)
So the z4m shares it's gearbox with the z4, and not with the m3

Maybe bmw did not offer the smg because it wasn't made anymore (z4 FL also has no smg offered), or maybe too expensive, or not desirable in the car, or not good enough anymore compared to competitors smg/dtc or whatever. But I don't think fitting issues is the problem.

Even the m3 smg would have fitted I think with minor modifications. (different lenght propshaft and some brackets perhaps)
Ratio's from the m3 differ slightly I think.

 

[Woody]

My god this is a long thread, got halfway down first page, don't have the energy to read it all soz! I did drive a 3.0i SE Auto and really didn't like it, didn't feel in control, it didn't feel that quick in a weird way. When I drove a manual 3.0i, it just felt so much better. But to be fair, that was the one and only time I've driven an auto, on a test drive with the owner sat next to me...! Everyone likes different things, I think they should've made an Auto M only to please those who'd want one (Mr Wilks, Stark etc). But they didn't, so that's that!

 

[Lower]

You heel & Toe to maintain revs, whilst breaking by slipping the clutch. In the 60's & 70's the amount of power you had and the number of gears available (usually 4) meant you had to heel & toe to exit a corner quickly. Modern cars with 6 gears makes it less useful, now you should be in the right gear as you enter the corner using all that torque to help power out without the clutch slipping

Not quite sure what you mean by that.

You heel and toe on down changes whilst braking into a corner to prevent the onset of engine braking when you down change from locking the rear wheels and unbalancing the car.

 

[ga41]

if its good enough for Lewis and Co...

For driving at work yes, but it's funny that Lewis (supposedly, i have to admit) has ordered a Pagani Zonda 760RS as a one-off manual instead of the automated manual... Mentioned here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beutB6R0Zqg

Not sure about DCT being cheating round a track - how many race cars have manual boxes nowadays ? Surely it's about correct lines, braking and speed ? Where does the manual box help ?

Many race cars actually do have 3 pedals just maybe not in the well known or high-end series like F1 or Le Mans. The ones that do don't row through the gears like normal gearboxes though, they're sequential manuals with paddles or a stick and usually only require the clutch on launch and downshifts (hence they need to heel-toe too, unless the car's computer blips the throttle for you electronically a-la Nissan 370Z leaving you with only the clutch and braking). Also as far as i'm aware i don't think any race cars use dual clutch or torque converter autos at all. Not because of certain technical reasons but probably homologation reasons. Although i do seem to recall that the Aston Martin Rapide that they fielded in 2012 Nurburgring 24h was with a torque converter...

Interesting and fairly consistent opinion against auto. I've not driven an SMG box so don't know how true it is to a proper sequential box. Does it stay in gear even if you bog it down or hit the rev limiter? (DSG will over-ride on the limiter or lower end)

SMG II that was in the E46 M3 doesn't shift up for you if you hit the redline if it's in Manual Mode. SMG I like the one available in the pre-facelift Z4 3.0 i believe shifts up for you if you take it to the redline, i could be wrong on this though.

Cheers exdos, sound advice. Any pointers to a commercially available one that people have tried and found good?

I made mine out of a M10 bolt and three nuts I had lying around with the addition of a rubber stop for the end of chair leg (I had to buy a pack of 4 from Homebase and still got 3 of them left.) It's about the easiest mod you can do once you've mastered fitting stubby aerials.

I'm also sure the accelerator is further away from the brake than on #69. I have (had) a pair of favourite driving shoes where if I kept the ball of my foot on the brake I could blip the throttle by rolling my foot such that the right edge pressed the accelerator.

The pedals on the Z3MC and Z4MC are not very well spaced for heel&toe. You can improve things by fitting aftermarket pedals which raise the height of the accelerator pedal relative to the brake pedal.

You can heel-toe perfectly well in the Z4M, just takes some practice. By the way i have a clutch-stop on my car too made by Rogue Engineering, http://www.rogueengineering.com/bmw/CS.html.

An observation/question:

Assuming F1 is the pinnacle of Motorsport and Motorsport engineering, why haven't they stayed with manual gearboxes?

They also don't use automatics.
Remember: an automatic transmission is the one that is fitted with a torque converter.
F1 and motorsports in general use semi automatic (that is SMG (single clutch style) or DTC (dual clutch style)) or Sequential manuals (motorbike style with or without clutch).
Never an automatic or manumatic (automatic gearbox where you can select gears like porsche tiptronic, but still with torque converter).

It's generally the torque converter with it's fluid loss and high inertia and the hydraulic pump to operate the gearbox that are responsible for the poor performance of automatics and manumatics.

GuidoK is right, dual clutch (DSG, DCT, PDK or whatever according to the car brand) or single clutch automated gearboxes (SMG, Lamborghini E-Gear) are not the same as torque converter automatics like the ones in the E85/E86 Z4's for the reasons he mentioned. On the other hand modern torque converters can be very good indeed as in the mentioned M135i and other cars.

The thing is Bing,on fast downshifts especially in wet and damp conditions you can feather the clutch pedal at its bite point so the car doesnt pitch heavily(or lock rear wheels) into the corner...

With Auto clutch(DSG etc) its either in or out,no middle ground... Not good for car control :thumbsdown:

If the downshift in that auto-box is accompanied by a rev-match then there is no locking of the wheels... SMG II and III did it, the newer Audi DSG boxes do it and even many torque converter boxes do it as well like Jaguar's and Mercedes'.

Now for my part i don't see anything wrong with the option of having the Z4M in SMG (the one from the E46 obviously), more choice for buyers. I'd still have one in manual though. If it would be available ONLY with SMG though then i'd go elsewhere. My Z4M is my first sports car and i really wanted it a manual so i could learn to heel-toe properly! I dont care if i'm slower, less fuel efficient or whatever. I really enjoy the feeling right after i nail a great heel-toe downshift! Shameless video plug here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0cncAjbltM

 

[jrainlay]

"..so the M remained as it was designed to be, a proper sports , drivers car, built to test and thrill the driver,,and not blur the margins by compromise turning it in to a southern softee semi grand tourer, god bless the M devision for sticking to their brief." -- madforslalom

"Indeed, a manual is slower then a DCT...on the street and on the track...everywhere. But some people don't care about that and find chancing gears themselves more fun... More efficient, does not alway mean more fun. Same with al the driver aids, some are really efficient. Look at all the tech in a Nissan GTR; I drove one for a day...it was massively fast...but it felt like I was driving a big computer who did everything for me and the drivers involvement was lower then on other slower cars." -- Franzino

The day will come (although probably not in my lifetime), when all our highways will be Automated Highway Systems, where the driving will be done by centralized computers, where human drivers (including their driving skills, decision-making abilities and freedom to express themselves) will be obsolete and everyone will be reduced to the status of passenger... Until that day comes, I'll cling firmly to my manual transmission, not just because I enjoy it, but as a matter of principle... because doing so helps preserve the last vestige of human subjectivity in the driving process. To paraphrase Charlton Heston: I'll give up my manual transmission when they pry it from my cold, dead hands!

 

[Bing]

ga41, learnt a lot from that post - thanks

 

[ga41]

No problem Bing. Just wanted to add in the discussion. As i said in my post, i specifically chose a manual car for the reasons i mentioned but i really don't see anything wrong with owning and enjoying a car with an automatic, either single clutch, dual clutch or whatever. It'd be a boring world if we all liked the same things wouldn't it?

I admire the capability of modern automatics like the latest dual clutch ones but i still feel the need to at least try and do things on my own. When i botch up a downshift it will be on me, when i misjudge a racing line on the track it will be on me, when i nail that heel-toe downshift with the straight six scream bouncing of the track wall i want it to still be me!

 

[Herminator]

It seems PH prefers a manual...

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=27027

 

[Aliv6]

At that time the technology wasn't good enough. SMGII is crap compared to the new DCT...

The box in the Z4 is also crap though, it's one of my biggest faults in the car...

 

[mad4slalom]

the box in the 4m does need a firm hand, i find, especiall downshifting 4th to third,if i dont think about it and downshift a bit weakly, it will not go in easily, needs about a 6 out of 10, whereas a4 wont be sufficient. ist to second took a bit of getting used to too you cant just bang it 1 to 2, you need to pause for a half a second mid shift and sort of sneak it in , a bit to the left helps too, as does amsoil mtf and cdv delete, after hating it initially i now find it fine and just acharacteristic of the m, a bit rough around the edges butinfinately better than a perfectly over engineered japper with no soul, a la s2000

 

[mad4slalom]

you dont see manual boxes in milk floats and golf buggies, .. conversely you dont see auto boxes in M's .........

 

[Jbtco]

One of my scariest experiences was my first time drive in a ZMC at a BMW track course at Mugello in 2006 (was expecting SMG geared E46 M3s but Fahrer Training changed to ZMCs for that season). Coming down the main straight at high speed into the right hander hairpin at the end and missing 4th gear from 5th with the left hand drive car made things interesting.

Over the 2 days grew to love the car and ordered one when I got home.