What real world difference is there between engines?

I had a new Ferrari try and leave me on a fast(ish) B road once. I was in my JCW MINI Cooper S. Stuck with him quite well! The Ferrari basically had too much power for the road we were on! :P
Warning though. If you follow a modern Ferrari down a B road, be prepared to have the front end of your car stone chipped!! The way the undertray and rear diffuser works on the Ferrari means that it basically sucks everything off the road and throws it out the back of the car!! :o
 
Figures:

Z4 Coupe:
Emissions: 207 g/km
0-62: 5.7 sec
50-75 (4th gear):5.2 sec
Weight: 1,395
Fuel Consumption (combined): 32.5 MPG
Drag: 0.34
BHP: 265@6600 RPM
Torque (Nm): 315/2750 RPM


Z4M Coupe:
Emissions: 292 g/km
0-62: 5.0 sec
50-75 (4th gear):5.0 sec
Weight: 1,495
Fuel Consumption (combined): 23.3 MPG
Drag: 0.35
BHP: 343@7900 RPM
Torque (Nm): 365/4900 RPM
Click to expand...

Using these figures 3.0si vs Z4M

Power to weight ratio is 190 vs 230 bhp/ton a 17% increase

Power to torque ratio is 226 vs 244 Nm/ton a 7.5% increase

If you look at where in the rev range these peak figures are produced you will have to thrash the z4m to get the advantage.

Perhaps in real world drivivg this is why the diffrences don't feel that great.

The diff on the M probably makes the most diffrence.

Ed
 
Strangely that is how it "felt" to me.

You may have a point on the M diff (small advantage though), but looking at the figures I think the "which car you have in your garage" makes the most performance difference!! :lol:
 
The 3.0 is a fantastic car and quick. Its smoother to drive than the M and having also driven against one, hard I agree the difference is marginal - both of us were flat out from a rolling start, a few straights and a few twisties, and yup, he was always within range.

BUT....

The gap between 0-60 in 5 and 5.7 is a chasm - F1 teams spend hundreds of thousands to buy a 10th of a second. In gear of 5 vs 5.2 I agree is small, but not irrelevant. More important though is the way the car feels - massively different. The M feels much more urgent, much more aggressive and, er quicker (in gear acceleration particuarly despite that figure suggesting otherwise!). If there was no difference but for a few M badges, I would have bought a 3.0 too

:)
 
But, for me, the extra purchase/running costs don't add up to the difference! :wink:

My JCW S MINI (210 BHP) was in the 6 second 0-60 bracket but it felt to drive actually quicker than the Z4 I have now! When I first bought the Z4 I thought I'd made a mistake! It isn't faster than a Z4, I realise that now, but the way you had to drive it (hard and at the top end of the rev range) made it feel quicker! Any engine you have to rev to get the power (read M engine) will "feel" a bit rawer, not necessarily quicker though (as you pointed out in your back to back).

Mind you, speed on the road is more about feel than the speedo reading so I guess I can see the draw of the M but I just don't think it is worth the extra cash! :)
 
Breaker said:
Strangely that is how it "felt" to me.

You may have a point on the M diff (small advantage though), but looking at the figures I think the "which car you have in your garage" makes the most performance difference!! :lol:
Click to expand...

The diff is only a small advantage? Coming from a e46 that didn't have an LSD I can tell you that an LSD makes a HUGE difference in cornering and acceleration. People are going on about accelerating in the wet and how if traction is a problem the 3.0 will be able to accelerate as fast. Simple answer is no because the LSD will provide way more grip then that "electronic diff" crap BMW puts on all the cars now. All that electronic diff does is break the wheel that is spinning robbing power that could be going to the ground in a true LSD. No matter what any one says here the M is faster in every respect.... it seems the only people that think the M is not that much faster are the people that have a Non-M. I am not trying to slam the 3.0 here because I think it is an amazing car but trying to say that it is in the same league as a z4m is just correct.
 
The only ones saying it is faster are the people who own an M! :P :fuelfire:

Not saying it isn't faster, it just doesn't feel enough to justify the extra money involved! :wink: There are lots of things on the road faster than vehicles I have owned but it doesn't mean to say they can go faster on a road situation. The honest reason I don't have an M in my garage really is because I didn't think it was enough of a difference to justify it. :wink:
I could supercharge my 3.0 for cheaper. :wink:
 
Breaker said:
Not saying it isn't faster, it just doesn't feel enough to justify the extra money involved!
Click to expand...

That was't the original premise of this thread. :wink:

If that is your conclusion, then that's fine. Mine was different and having owned both I am very glad to spend the extra bucks...YMMV.
 
To compare the two one could not have driven the two at their limit. In the normal day to day argument... Buy a KIA. Of course the 335 is far more car than any Z. If operating costs enter into a car purchasing decision why would anyone be crazy enough to buy any BMW?
 
Well, here's my 2 cents worth. Having driven both the 3.0 and the 2.5 the difference in acceleration is noticable but nothing to write home about. My previous car was a 350+ hp "muscle car" and I can tell you for a fact that the level of acceleration of that car compared to my 2.5's 185 hp is substantial. I haven't driven the M so I can't compare but given that it too has 300+ hp and is considerably lighter than my Mustang was, it must accelerate as well or better. So in my opinion (key word "my") there can be no real comparison between the 2.5/3.0 and the 3.2 M engines for all out performance.
Day to day driving the 2.5 has plenty of power, put it on the track with an M roadster/coupe and I'm going to get my ass kicked, period. :thumbsup:
 
Caddyshk said:
To compare the two one could not have driven the two at their limit. In the normal day to day argument... Buy a KIA. Of course the 335 is far more car than any Z. If operating costs enter into a car purchasing decision why would anyone be crazy enough to buy any BMW?
Click to expand...
But in the context of a Z4 3.0 or M, costs can enter into it considering, on the road, there is so little in it. On top of the bigger purchase costs (did a check on the BMW website and the same spec M to my 3.0si is almost £10,000 dearer new!!!), the M would cost me over £140 more a year for insurance, add to that the MPG being almost 10mpg worse (going on BMW figures here) and in the UK the road tax is for the M in the highest bracket (the 3.0 is lower), for me the M needed to feel a lot faster then the 3.0 than it did for the extra costs. Also, are the service intervals lower for the M? I don't know there.

I was just after value for money TBH.
That's just me though. :wink:

Both great cars. You pay your money and make your choice.

I'd still be interested in the real difference of that M diff compared to the 3.0's electronic stuff though, as this seems the most likely thing to make the biggest difference on the road to my original post on this thread. :)
 
service intervals are the same (depending on driving) however the prices are double!

I've just bought another M and seriously considered a 3.0sport, factoring everything in me doing 16k miles a year the 3.0 would of saved me over £150 a month in running costs

still bought the M though :lol:
 
For £150 more a month I would expect to running a Porshe 911 or simmilar! Rich people 'eh! :roll:
Mind you, I see your into track days so would make sense I guess! :wink:

It's always more difficult to go down a model when buying the same again.! :wink:
 
Breaker said:
For £150 more a month I would expect to running a Porshe 911
Click to expand...

i did consider it, however for the same purchase price you looking at a much older and higher milage car which decided it for me in the end
 
Breaker said:
Caddyshk said:
To compare the two one could not have driven the two at their limit. In the normal day to day argument... Buy a KIA. Of course the 335 is far more car than any Z. If operating costs enter into a car purchasing decision why would anyone be crazy enough to buy any BMW?
Click to expand...
But in the context of a Z4 3.0 or M, costs can enter into it considering, on the road, there is so little in it. On top of the bigger purchase costs (did a check on the BMW website and the same spec M to my 3.0si is almost £10,000 dearer new!!!), the M would cost me over £140 more a year for insurance, add to that the MPG being almost 10mpg worse (going on BMW figures here) and in the UK the road tax is for the M in the highest bracket (the 3.0 is lower), for me the M needed to feel a lot faster then the 3.0 than it did for the extra costs. Also, are the service intervals lower for the M? I don't know there.

I was just after value for money TBH.
That's just me though. :wink:

Both great cars. You pay your money and make your choice.

I'd still be interested in the real difference of that M diff compared to the 3.0's electronic stuff though, as this seems the most likely thing to make the biggest difference on the road to my original post on this thread. :)
Click to expand...

With respect, whether you liked or could justify the additional expense of the Z4M there are significant differences in comparative speeds of the two vehicles. The M is not the sort of car you cruise in and needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck to be driven quickly unlike the softer 3.0 litre version. So for the sake of this comparison - overtaking, then the following need to be considered:

1. Slippy diff - wet road or not, crossing white lines can cause issues
2. Power - particularly pertinent when overtaking especially when you consider that the S54 will rev to circa 9k which the 3.0 litre won't.
3. Tyres - OK, the OEM Contis are nothing to write home about but they make the RFTs fitted to the rest of the range look decidedly prosaic.
3. Torque - if you use a higher gear, as has been pointed out there is significantly more available in the M
 
Here's my $0.02. I was having 3.0 envy after buying my 2.5i. So I went to the dealer and switched between my 2.5 and 3.0si on the same winding back roads. I felt very little difference in the 0-40 range. After that, I think the difference would increase due to the extra 70hp. Honestly, I was surprise it wasn't more of a difference. And yes, I drove both cars very hard and well in the peak hp/torque range.

So I'm sure there's a big difference between the 2.5 and the M, but between the 3.0 and M, probably about the same as between the 2.5 and 3.0. This is of course of fun driving roads, not a track. As many have said, the difference would be magnified considerably on a track.

So personally, I'm glad I bought the 2.5 and not the 3.0 as this makes sense for me to upgrade to an M. It'd surely be a harder sell for me to upgrade to the M if I had a 3.0. But my thought is, I want to keep the car for many many years. So I might was well have the M if I'm going to keep it as a collector.
 
Wow! What a wild thread!

I read an interesting quote once that made a lot of sense to me:

"People buy horsepower, but they drive torque."

When I was comparing the 2.5 and the 3.0 before buying, I found a graph that showed the torque curves of the two motors. The 3.0 made more torque at 2000RPM than the 2.5 did ever. For normal, day to day driving on public roads in the real world, the 3.0 is much more relaxing to drive because that torque is always available. Just a prod of the throttle and away you go. You don't need to downshift to find the torque that you need via higher RPM and gear reduction.

Having said that, some people may not like that style of driving and would rather downshift because of the "fun factor". I would say that it really doesn't matter what motor you have, as long as it fits your driving style and you're enjoying yourself. We went with the 3.0 to get the taller gearing for a more relaxed long distance tourer. It would be a waste to have the 3.0 if your driving is all short trips and you enjoy a more spirited style of driving (real world driving that is - not racing on public roads).

If it works for you, enjoy it. If it doesn't, it's nice have options.

Bill
 
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