Tyre comparison

[Phoenixboy]

Perhaps slightly controversial, but coming from a motorbike background, doing numerous track days, I’m interested to know peoples thoughts on mid range tyres versus the higher spec.
Is it as I discovered, a certain amount of ‘ i always put the stickiest top spec tyres on and wouldn’t put anything less on’.
I found out, and proved, most mere mortals get nowhere near to the limits of there tyres, and would notice little difference between a mid range sports tyre and a top spec super sticky tyre.
So what I’m asking is, would most z4 drivers actually notice the difference between mid range tyres and the higher spec, if you didn’t tell them first?
Personally I have my doubts.
Are we drawn to fitting the best because we believe it will be better, or is it just because it’s what we’re led to believe we should be fitting.
I personally put this theory to test on my R1 last year at almeria, fitting decent sports tyres but by no means the best, and my times were no different from the previous two days on top spec tyres.
So my question is, are we simply governed by our ability, and really paying for top spec tyres when mid range would see little if any difference to our driving experience.

 

[mmm-five]

I don’t know if I’d feel the difference between a Nankang NSR or P-Zero Corsa, but I definitely felt the difference between a the OE Continental SportContact M3 and a Michelin PS2 or Supersport.

However, I’ve tried cheaper ones in the past and found that if they grip as well, they tend to last half as long. If they wear better, then they usually grip less. They’re usually one trick ponies that can win on one or two metrics only.

However, I agree that most people (especially those that never go near a track) will never be able to take advantage of the grip of some of the current crop of tyres at normal road speeds in the dry, never mind when pushing on in the cold, damp, greasy conditions. But that’s also partly due to the fact that a track will have a consistent surface, won’t have potholes and oily surfaces for the unsuspecting driver (Nurburgring excepted ).

There are always exceptions to the rules of course, and you’d only know if you tried every tyre on the market...and in some cases, the big brands don’t deliver on their promises - e.g. Yokohama AVS Sports that I tried on my e34 M5, that I kept giving another 100 miles to settle down and finally removed after 2,000 miles for P-Zero Rosso (again a tyre that got great reviews but didn’t perform on the M5).

So most people don’t risk wasting their money and simply go for a known brand - much like people buy a Sony TV instead of a Bush.

BTW I’ve run lots of brands on at least one of my cars, e.g. Bridgestone (Pole Position S-02), Firestone, Falken on my VR6; Bridgestone (pole position S-01), Yokohama(AVS Sport, 595), Pirelli (P-Zero rosso, nero, corsa), Michelin (Pilot Sport, PS2, Cup), Continental, Vredestein, Toyo (R888), Silverstone, Interstate (as a test for Pistonheads) on my M5s; but only Continental (OE M3) and Michelin (PS2 & supersport) on the Z4.

 

[Phoenixboy]

Thanks, interesting.
Whilst I would never condone fitting the cheap and nasty tyres to a z, I was interested to see the difference between a 60 pound tyre and a 90 pound tyre.
Would there be a great difference in the life of the two, if we accept there’s not much noticeable difference in the grip levels we can feel.
Are we just led to believe the more we pay for the tyre, the better it will perform?
My z came with mid range tyres, and I will almost certainly put something better on before the season starts, and will be interested to see if I feel the difference, or convince myself it must be better because it’s a higher spec.

 

[mr wilks]

Thanks, interesting.
Whilst I would never condone fitting the cheap and nasty tyres to a z, I was interested to see the difference between a 60 pound tyre and a 90 pound tyre.
Would there be a great difference in the life of the two, if we accept there’s not much noticeable difference in the grip levels we can feel.
Are we just led to believe the more we pay for the tyre, the better it will perform?
My z came with mid range tyres, and I will almost certainly put something better on before the season starts, and will be interested to see if I feel the difference, or convince myself it must be better because it’s a higher spec.

You have raised some good points especially regarding brand snobbery & certain buyers wanting tyres that way exceed there actual requirements simply because they believe others won't perform as well .
I don't agree that there isn't much noticeable difference in grip levels across the brands though :? that isn't saying that cheaper ones can't function like expensive ones , it simply means they are all different & offer different plus + negatives .
Ive tried countless brands over the number of Zs ive had & would still struggle to find a better tyre ( for the money ) than the Uniroyal rs3 , but then i don't need 20k out of them & the main negative for them seems to be wear rate which ive never experienced
(though i'm currently 4k into a set on my workhorse van so plan to see if they do or don't wear fast )
My second choice would be Vredestein , shame they stopped the Sessanta as they were terrific all rounders but the Vorti seem extremely good so far on my 35i
What i can tell you over possibly 30-40 different sets of tyres/wheel combos ive tried is a semi budget tyre (Avon , Kumho ,Hankook Falken) perform more than adequetely when 6-8mm but drop them below 5mm or lower & they start to feel a little shady when damp or pushing on :driving: the price difference showing the more wear they get whereas Michelin ,Conti , Vredestein & UniRs3 perform exactly the same down towards the wear bars .
All my own thoughts btw , nothing scientific or statistically proven

 

[Nictrix]

I have had cheap tyres and expensive tyres on both cars and bikes and will never again buy cheap budget tyres.
I wouldnt say that I have a brand snobbery but my bike came with Michelin Pilot Powers and I liked them so 10 years on thats what I still put on it. Older bikes in my younger years had sometimes whatever tyre was cheapest out of the name brand tyres but I would never mix different brands front and back on a bike as it can make the handling interesting.
I have had one set of cheap tyres on a car years ago as I had no money and the car was just a runabout but never again. I dont know what the tyres were but it was like they were made of plastic, extremely hard, didnt wear out and you could slide the front on roundabouts at will with very little effort. After those I swore I would never buy cheap tyres again, they are not safe.
The tyres on the Z are GoodYears as that is what most on here recommend and have been trouble free so will be replaced with the same.

 

[mr wilks]

I have had cheap tyres and expensive tyres on both cars and bikes and will never again buy cheap budget tyres.
I wouldnt say that I have a brand snobbery but my bike came with Michelin Pilot Powers and I liked them so 10 years on thats what I still put on it. Older bikes in my younger years had sometimes whatever tyre was cheapest out of the name brand tyres but I would never mix different brands front and back on a bike as it can make the handling interesting.
I have had one set of cheap tyres on a car years ago as I had no money and the car was just a runabout but never again. I dont know what the tyres were but it was like they were made of plastic, extremely hard, didnt wear out and you could slide the front on roundabouts at will with very little effort. After those I swore I would never buy cheap tyres again, they are not safe.
The tyres on the Z are GoodYears as that is what most on here recommend and have been trouble free so will be replaced with the same.

You can't compare cheap tyres with decent mid range or lower end of the high range cheapo , budget rubber is gash & really not worth the effort or cost of the valve,fitting & balance

 

[Nictrix]

I have had cheap tyres and expensive tyres on both cars and bikes and will never again buy cheap budget tyres.
I wouldnt say that I have a brand snobbery but my bike came with Michelin Pilot Powers and I liked them so 10 years on thats what I still put on it. Older bikes in my younger years had sometimes whatever tyre was cheapest out of the name brand tyres but I would never mix different brands front and back on a bike as it can make the handling interesting.
I have had one set of cheap tyres on a car years ago as I had no money and the car was just a runabout but never again. I dont know what the tyres were but it was like they were made of plastic, extremely hard, didnt wear out and you could slide the front on roundabouts at will with very little effort. After those I swore I would never buy cheap tyres again, they are not safe.
The tyres on the Z are GoodYears as that is what most on here recommend and have been trouble free so will be replaced with the same.

You can't compare cheap tyres with decent mid range or lower end of the high range cheapo , budget rubber is gash & really not worth the effort or cost of the valve,fitting & balance

I completely agree and always tell friends not to try and save money on tyres, its a false economy. They are not safe and dont normally last as long either.

 

[Phoenixboy]

Thanks mrwilks interesting .
So noticeable difference on cheaper tyres as they start to wear, but not so noticeable in the early stages.
But the higher spec tyres last longer,and maintain grip .
Whereas on the sticky bike tyres, the higher spec super sticky tyres wear rapidly, but the sports tyre of a more standard(for want of a better word) type, whilst offering little difference in grip levels to most riders, last considerably longer.
Interesting comparison for me and possibly others.

 

[patriot66]

Thanks mrwilks interesting .
So noticeable difference on cheaper tyres as they start to wear, but not so noticeable in the early stages.
But the higher spec tyres last longer,and maintain grip .
Whereas on the sticky bike tyres, the higher spec super sticky tyres wear rapidly, but the sports tyre of a more standard(for want of a better word) type, whilst offering little difference in grip levels to most riders, last considerably longer.
Interesting comparison for me and possibly others.

Just replaced both rear "semi budget" Avon ZZ5s (255/35 R18) on my Zed last week as I knew they wouldn't pass the MOT. After almost 20k miles they were down flush on the wear indicators (3mm ? The legal limit is just 1.6 mm !!! ) but still providing superb grip in ALL conditions. Not once did they let me down, even when 'making progress' :driving:
I paid £91.80 each for the new ones from Camskill and had them fitted and balanced at my usual fitter (Burscough Tyres) for just £30. I will definitely be replacing my front ZZ5s with the same when required

 

[mr wilks]

Thanks mrwilks interesting .
So noticeable difference on cheaper tyres as they start to wear, but not so noticeable in the early stages.
But the higher spec tyres last longer,and maintain grip .
Whereas on the sticky bike tyres, the higher spec super sticky tyres wear rapidly, but the sports tyre of a more standard(for want of a better word) type, whilst offering little difference in grip levels to most riders, last considerably longer.
Interesting comparison for me and possibly others.

Just replaced both rear "semi budget" Avon ZZ5s (255/35 R18) on my Zed last week as I knew they wouldn't pass the MOT. After almost 20k miles they were down flush on the wear indicators (3mm ? The legal limit is just 1.6 mm !!! ) but still providing superb grip in ALL conditions. Not once did they let me down, even when 'making progress' :driving:
I paid £91.80 each for the new ones from Camskill and had them fitted and balanced at my usual fitter (Burscough Tyres) for just £30. I will definitely be replacing my front ZZ5s with the same when required

Your confidence & satisfaction with your chosen brand does sum up why there can be no definitive answer to "which tyre is best for a Z4 :?
No two owners ask the same of their rubber & not wishing to talk down the early 2.5 E85s you can't really say what works well on a sub 200bhp rwd Z4 will work on a 330bhp model or heavier more lardy E89 running upwards of 340bhp :?
Good that the Avon's work well for you & as pointed out can be had for very fair money on staggered 18inch fitment

 

[buzyg]

I don't know about ultimate grip, as that can change from one corner to the next in the real world. What I have done over the years is try different tyres , until I find one that gives good balance and inspires confidence. Then I tend to stick with that tyre. I ended up fitting Kumos for years on my old FIAT. The Journey with the Zed was Conti's then a few sets of VReds and then PSS ever since. I love the PSS so I now stick with them. Not because of the brand, though that may be why I originally tried them out, but because they work for me on my Zed. The Journey may start over now you can't get them any more. :driving:

 

[Lazza]

I have some slightly different experience from my MX5 background. They are light cars so need soft rubber to really make them work on the road. The most popular tyres have been Toyo T1R (which are definitely budget) and a Uniroyal Rainsport 3.
However, on the track things change quite a lot. On our old track Mk1 MX5 with standard 1.6 engine with no more than around 110bhp we mostly used Toyo R888 but I found that some cheap Avon ZZ3 tyres actually allowed for much more confidence on the track. The reason? R888 are incredibly grippy, especially once properly warmed up but when they let go they let go completely. With the ZZ3s, the grip limit is lower but they let go gradually which lets you play with it a lot more at the limits and to have confidence that if you do over do it you can still keep control of the car and keep it pointing the right direction.
Of course what works on an underpowered, lightweight MX5 isn’t likely to work on my 35i but it does make the point that the best tyres aren’t necessarily those with the most grip.
I’d also add that driving style, driving ability and confidence also have a say in which tyres are the best which makes a definitive recommendation hard to make.

 

[Phoenixboy]

Some great responses everyone.
It would seem there are lots of variables.
Ultimately, it’s down to your choice.
But I suppose the key point is to make an informed choice based on your car, your ability, the type of driving you do,and obviously your budget.
Why spend top money if you have a budget, on the top spec tyre, if you are going to gain little or any great benefit, when perhaps you could spend the difference on something else on your car, that you would see far more gains from.
Just my opinion, but hopefully food for thought.

 

[Steve84N]

It's not just about the grip you regularly use though. You want as much in reserve as possible for when something unexpected happens.

The only reason you'd buy mid-range over premium is if you can't afford it. Otherwise, more expensive tyres are genuinely better so long as you've got the right type for the intended use.

 

[mr wilks]

The only reason you'd buy mid-range over premium is if you can't afford it. Otherwise, more expensive tyres are genuinely better

Unless you've tried them all how can you know "more expensive is better " :?
I bought a brand new set of Vred Vorti 19s just 3 weeks ago , not because i couldn't afford more expensive Michelin , Goodyear or Continental , but because i believe ( based on past experience ) that they are more than capable of performing to a level that exceeds my requirement , capabilities & expectation's .
Your statement above epitomises perfectly the brand snobbery involved with tyres

 

[Lazza]

I tried some Pirelli P Zero Nero on my supercharged MX5. By far the most expensive tyres I’ve ever tried on it, very much premium tyres. They were useless. Even though it had close to 250bhp, the car just couldn’t push them hard enough to generate any heat, hence they didn’t have any grip. The cheap Toyo T1Rs that are on there now are far better.

Doesn’t apply to Z4 as much but makes the point that expensive/premium doesn’t have to mean better. They have to be matched to the car & use its being put to.

 

[Steve84N]

I've had mid range tyres too so I'm not talking rubbish.

A good example is the Falken 452 that was often recommended as being good for the money. They were alright but F1s are better.

I acknowledged that expensive isn't automatically better as it's got to fit the purpose.

Toyo T1-R tyres are pants in the wet but fine for the dry.

 

[earthdweller]

It’s quite an emotive topic really isn’t it ?

I suppose it all comes down to what car and what you intend to use it for

Ditchfinders on a £500 Corsa that only goes to the supermarket and school is on thing

What someone who runs a Zed as a daily commuter might need as opposed to someone who has it a toy and uses occasionally might WANT would differ

I do however think that this rubber provides you with the safest four inches of your life and should not be scrimped on

But, the main danger with low mileage cars is the age of tyres and the potential for age related problems .. how many people pay any attention to tyre dates or age related deterioration ?

As an aside my former employer had a contract to fit Dunlop tyres on its fleet and everything went onto them as soon as the original fit tyres needed to be replaced

Everything from fiesta’s to transits and high performance BMW and Audi’s

Did you notice a difference ?

On the run of the mill stuff not a chance, but on the faster stuff yes you could in some cases particularly the BMW’s as they took them off the run flats but you just drove around that

Funnily the only cars we didn’t use the generic Dunlop’s on were the Subaru Sti’s which just didn’t work with them at all

We went back to the fleet managers and got them to agree to pay for the OE spec tyres as they were crap with anything else

Personally, I think there is very little difference amongst the top end tyres and good mid range but I’d avoid budget tyres

 

[Pastry]

This thread has been a really interesting read. I agree with pretty much all of it apart from ‘The only reason you'd buy mid-range over premium is if you can't afford it’ which just proves a fool and his money are easily parted.

The CSLs on my M came with Vreds and I was going to change them for premium brand however I no longer feel the need since I drove with some other M cars all on different rubber ( mid and premium). When ‘pressing on’ enough to tell, we all felt our rubber was more than capable of keeping us on the straight and narrrow. I believe that unless you are a very talented driver and tracking your car there are mid range tyres plenty good enough for your needs.

 

[Steve84N]

I'd be a fool if I hadn't tried mid range but I did and it's not as good. Period.

Do I disagree that mid range is 'good enough', no I don't. However, given free choice I'll stick with the best.