tracking a z4

goldbcfc said:
Artful-Bodger said:
Lighten up chaps,



one thing to consider when putting larger tyres on rims is the sidewall angle, ideally an 8" tyre works best on an 8" rim, I know some guys who run 180/530/13 (7") on 8" rims but they are slicks which work very differently to road tyres.

The Z4 fronts are 225 (circa 9") on 8" rims, ok for the road but as far as you want to go really, putting tyres wider than this on an 8" rim can result in the sidewall deflecting leading to less grip and more carcass distortion.

Balancing the car is a tricky business that needs experience, if for instance you are suffering understeer ideally you want to increase front end grip, however there are times when this is impractical so you end up reducing rear end to balance the car, overall less grip but better balance and more confidence which equals quicker times as your not understeering off into the kitty litter or swapping ends with a car that suddenly steps out on you!

If you need to reduce oversteer then again disconnect the rear anti roll bar or increase rear tyre pressure, the bar transfers weight to the outside tyre increasing it's work whilst reducing the work done by the inside wheel, it's literally dumping more and more weight onto the tyre, a tyre can only take so much load before you distort the carcass and increase the slip angle, resulting in the back end stepping out.

Dave makes an interesting point which shows the variation in tyres when load is applied, I would be interested to know what tyres Dave was using, I used Avon's on a Westfield for hill climbs and ran sub 20psi for nearly all events, but that car weighed in at 610kg, his Caterham being half the weight of a Z4 could run with lower pressures, the benefit of this is it allows the tyre to move more generating heat, the more heat (up to a point) the more grip.

The problem for heavy cars is the tyre is already moving too much so you have to stabilise the tyre, generating heat is not a problem when your hurling 1300kg about, but as I mentioned above, get the tyres working well and overheating becomes an issue with road tyres as the tread blocks move about, any of you guys who have done a lot of track work will be familiar with the feel when your tyres go off!

I just read this after posting other comment. Sorry I get wound up easily by people who usually comment with expertise knowledge but never actually tried track etc. These are same types of people at work who come unstuck with all their great how to do things when you pass them the tools to actually do a job. He knew damn wel what I meant just finds it good to point score about who knows more about understeer/oversteer....... really?

I've noticed a lot I track with use quite high walled fat tyres, Ive used 225/35/18 and 225/35/19 tyres squeeled a lot on the 19" but had more grip it felt than using the 18" maybe that was just added weight of them I don't know. I tried 17" ot for track but on road and didn't like it. The car felt like it would wheel spin far to easy and turning into corners felt too light. Yet again maybe im to used to running 19" on my Z4

The make and construction of the tyre will matter far more than it's diameter, you can have three different make tyres all the same size and they will all behave differently needing a different setup, one of which will suit the weight and geometry of the car and your driving technique.
We used to run Bridgestones on our 325 and one season splashed out on a set of Yokohama A008r's, unfortunately the RAC changed the list of permitted tyres in the blue book and we couldn't run them, so we ended up with a very expensive set of track day tyres, the car was superb on them, over 1.5 seconds a lap faster than on the Bridgestones, we were gutted , especially as we had spent all our cash, we ended up buying a set of Yokohama A539 off a guy we knew, nothing special but worth a try, and were well chuffed when we could lap within 1/2 a second of the A008r's, but that was on our car, the guy we bough them off had no luck with them at all on his Impreza!

The squealing by the way is the tread blocks moving around as the carcass distorts, sometimes what feels fast can be misleading, the stopwatch knows and tells all!
 
TomK said:
It's not the first time that you've been told either that it reduces understeer not oversteer (there's a pretty big difference between the 2 by the way), yet you still insist on aggressively telling us that we do not know what we are talking about and that you do. Stop it.
Quite why you post on a Z4 forum so much when you sold the car so long ago I don't really understand. I wouldn't mind except pretty much everything you say is nonsense and if anyone disagrees with you then you get aggressive. I can only presume you are banned from e46 forums so feel the need to vent your s**t here, please don't.

+200. An interesting thread marred by the usual rubbish from that idiot. Literally got the worst small man syndrome I've ever seen, please ignore him and stop quoting his posts so he disappears for good.
 
Good points Artful-Bodger, I have read many a topic on sidewall feel back when people were debating ToyoT1-R vs Goodyear Eagle F1. (F1 hands down for wet grip alone) The tyre sizes on the Z4 typically fall into the Extra Load category which my understanding is that they are designed for the heavier loads and are stiffer to compensate.
 
just checked , 38 psi in fronts and 32 in rears.
seems odd.
ive got a set of 17s that came on the car originally which I might use next time as I wont feel guilty about destroying the tyres!!
also am all for reducing understeer but got to have a bit oversteer otherwise its boring :D .
so your saying if I disconnect the rear anti roll bar it would oversteer more?
a lsd is out of the question as am guessing a lot of money and putting a welder in it isn't really ideal for using on the road.
 
bazpro88 said:
just checked , 38 psi in fronts and 32 in rears.
seems odd.
ive got a set of 17s that came on the car originally which I might use next time as I wont feel guilty about destroying the tyres!!
also am all for reducing understeer but got to have a bit oversteer otherwise its boring :D .
so your saying if I disconnect the rear anti roll bar it would oversteer more?
a lsd is out of the question as am guessing a lot of money and putting a welder in it isn't really ideal for using on the road.

If it were me, I would do as advised above and start with getting the same tyres on the front axle as the back axle, adjusting the pressures to correct levels (if you've checked 38psi in the fronts cold, they could quite easily have reached 42psi on track, well above where they should be).
Get the geometry checked and then from there you know you have a good basis to go and further experiment.
 
alinement is on the cards,
the standard 17s have yokohamas on I think and they are a square setup as well if I remember so will use them next time.
much prefer the look of staggered setup though.
 
bazpro88 said:
just checked , 38 psi in fronts and 32 in rears.
seems odd.
ive got a set of 17s that came on the car originally which I might use next time as I wont feel guilty about destroying the tyres!!
also am all for reducing understeer but got to have a bit oversteer otherwise its boring :D .
so your saying if I disconnect the rear anti roll bar it would oversteer more?
a lsd is out of the question as am guessing a lot of money and putting a welder in it isn't really ideal for using on the road.

Your starting point for tyre pressures should be factory recommendations and then go up, I have found a minimum of factory +4psi is a reliable starting point, buying a tyre pyrometer is a good investment as this tells you exactly how much camber and pressure is working and the temps will give you a good idea when your out of balance at one end.

Disconnecting the rear anti roll bar will reduce oversteer as there is less weight transfer to the outside loaded tyre it will also improve traction out of tight corners (up to a point) it's no substitute for an LSD.

If your car suffers understeer increase the front tyre pressures or if they are already starting to feel light due to high pressures disconnect the front bar and adjust the front - rear balance on the dampers and pressures (if you have adjustable dampers).

It's well worth experimenting by playing with pressures and bars just to see how your car behaves with your driving and the tyres it has, once you have an understanding of what changes in the balance when you make these big adjustments then you will be able to figure out what you want and tune the handling, but it's always a compromise, a car that works great through the fast corners may be less predictable in the slower corners and vice versa.

A simple guide is-
1, increase pressures +4 and try it to see how it feels
2, attempt to balance any understeer or oversteer by raising or lowering the pressures in small 2psi steps, try a couple of laps after each adjustment
3, if you have understeer and pressures are not balancing it, disconnect the front bar and drop your front pressures by 2psi then try again, for oversteer do the same at the rear.
4, some times the only way to cure an imbalance is to "spoil" the other end, if for instance you have oversteer because the front end is turning in really well but the back can't follow you may have to dial in counter understeer to balance the car, on track days your lap time is not really important but having a predictable car that gives confidence certainly is.

The ideal balance for me was turn in oversteer so I could rotate the car through the corner with the back just starting to slide then power on understeer so I could get on the throttle just before the apex with the front just starting to slide, but that was for my driving style and you have to find what works for you it's also very difficult to achieve and you often have to compromise.

Remember to make notes with each change and note what difference it made, temp on the day will be a very important factor as the next time you go on a cooler or hotter day you may have to tweek your settings.

for chrissake do NOT weld up a diff, the whole point of a diff is to let the wheels rotate at different speeds on the same axle, if you drive the car round a roundabout the outside wheel is travelling further than the inside one as the diameter of it's circle is smaller due to the width of the cars track, it's not hard to realise how much stress this would put on the drive shafts and the horrendous understeer you will cause! as both wheels try to push the car against each other!
Drifters weld up the diff to prevent the power being sent solely to the unloaded wheel, but they flick the car into a drift and then maintain it by allowing the wheels to spin, it might look cool but it's slow as hell!

An LSD works like a clutch by allowing a portion of the power to be sent to the loaded wheel before the clutch slips, you hear of LSD's being set in percentage term such as 40%, that's the amount of power of it's normal 50% share sent to the loaded wheel, A welded diff being 100% ie 50% to each wheel, the tighter the diff (higher the percentage) the greater the power split and traction but the greater the understeer normally.
 
TomK said:
bazpro88 said:
just checked , 38 psi in fronts and 32 in rears.
seems odd.
ive got a set of 17s that came on the car originally which I might use next time as I wont feel guilty about destroying the tyres!!
also am all for reducing understeer but got to have a bit oversteer otherwise its boring :D .
so your saying if I disconnect the rear anti roll bar it would oversteer more?
a lsd is out of the question as am guessing a lot of money and putting a welder in it isn't really ideal for using on the road.

If it were me, I would do as advised above and start with getting the same tyres on the front axle as the back axle, adjusting the pressures to correct levels (if you've checked 38psi in the fronts cold, they could quite easily have reached 42psi on track, well above where they should be).
Get the geometry checked and then from there you know you have a good basis to go and further experiment.

:thumbsup:
 
thought i would update this,
serviced the car today new plugs etc and fitted some 15 mm spacers to the front, while I had the wheels off I noticed ive got poly bushes on the anti roll bar. great I thought one less job to do , then realized why can I see the whole bush on the drivers side?
and why can I move it about haha.
its not actually connected to the car !
its connected to the drop link but not clamped onto the actual car like on the other side.
can you buy the bits that clamp to the car or should it still be there. didn't get a good look underneath as I was in a hurry and had to get the wheel back on .
 
Shouldn't be a problem finding another retaining plate, I'm surprised you didn't get clonking noises if one side is free floating!

Check the bolt holes where the retainer has disappeared, the previous owner may have over tightened the bolts and they snapped off, more likely though they were not fitted, or not tightened!
 
Worst case scenario is the threads have stripped in the chassis...

I'm sure BMW will sell you the studs and u clamps.
 
funny you should mention it I do sometimes get random clunks but not all the time so most likely found the culprit.
getting it up on my mates ramps tomorrow.
 
Back
Top Bottom