Track pad advice please

[exdos]

so then single piston floating items are pants?

Personally, I don't think that they're as bad as lots of people make out. If you look through all the parts catalogues of BMW models, you'll see that almost all of their models have run one pot calipers, even on the heaviest cars, but from time to time they've used multi-pots on specific models.

Take a look at the "Repair set brake caliper" Part number: 34 11 1 157 037 required for the Z4MC's front brakes; it's the same kit for many of BMW's heaviest cars, including the 7, 8 and X5 series. Since brakes convert kinetic energy to heat energy, and since a large mass at the same speed as a smaller mass has more kinetic energy to convert to heat when braking, then it would appear to me that if the SAME one-pot piston used in any of the 7, 8 and X5 series cars can bring them to a standstill from 155mph (or the same top speeds), then the same one pots should be well in hand to do the same for the much lighter Z4MC. It's not the braking capability of OEM brakes that might be a problem, only the duty cycle, and that's why we've moved the thread on to discuss brake cooling.

I'm sure most of us, including me, would prefer some really attractive, colourful multi-pot BBKs, but are they really necessary? I know that the OEM single pot brakes of my Z3MC outperforms the tyres when I really step on them, so a BBK would be a waste on that car. I've not yet had the Z4MC on track but from my experience of the car, thus far, I find the weakest part is the suspension which I think is awful but I think the stopping power of the brakes is very good. I've driven around The Ring with some people in CSLs with OEM brakes who can fly around there whilst others with CSLs fitted with AP Racing BBKs, front and rear, etc. are pretty slow. I've formed the opinion that it's not always the equipment that's at fault.

 

[Gargybloke]

I think if a large one pot is new and working efficiently its fine but after a time the slides can gum up, you get uneven braking and a sticking caliper. This design looks more prone to corrosion causing an issue I would say.

 

[ChawenHalo]

I think if a large one pot is new and working efficiently its fine but after a time the slides can gum up, you get uneven braking and a sticking caliper. This design looks more prone to corrosion causing an issue I would say.

Not sure... never had a sticky problem, just overheating (created by missuse as Exdos Explains).

It would seem that the advantage is a lighter unsprung weight? although I don't quite know what it means to be sure. :?

 

[ChawenHalo]

I thought we were getting bad. Check out the below and laugh your head off:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=471551

 

[exdos]

It would seem that the advantage is a lighter unsprung weight? although I don't quite know what it means to be sure. :?

Sprung weight is everything above the suspension (i.e. the bodyshell and all it's components, including seats, engine, gear box, radio, windows etc.) which can move above the wheels due to forces acting on the vehicle. Therefore, the unsprung weight is everything on the opposite ends of the suspension, such as the wheels, brakes, control arms etc. The actual dampers themselves are top end sprung weight and bottom end unsprung and as an example, Bilstein/ AC Schnitzer suspension for the Z4MC inverts the rear dampers to the normal, by putting the lighter moving rod end attached to the wheel hub, to reduce unsprung weight. My flexible brake ducting, when attached to the hubs, will also be part sprung/unsprung weight too.

I thought we were getting bad. Check out the below and laugh your head off:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=471551

That thread you linked to offers one of the best arguments in favour of BMW one-pot brakes I've ever seen with stopping distances to prove it.

 

[Franzino]

I'm a complete numpty on the track and a bigginer so my advice is worth what it is(therefore leave DCT on often and just try not to trigger it) and in all honesty whilst I really wanted an APR BBK i've done the followiong on a resonable budget and am really pleased with the results:

New disks (cooked the previous ones)
Pagid RS 29 (not THAT expensive, they're a good endurance pad so not so hard on the disks apparently)
Goodridge hoses (€300.00 including DOT 5 and fitting).

Downside is that the Pagid are bloody noisy dirty so and sos, but they heat up quickly and are fine for road use. Great when hot, ;lots of feeln in the pedal and consistent.

Lots of people use Pagid blue which are quiter.

Will let you know how well they last but the garage I use have fitted them to 1 GT2; 1 GT2RS and at least 3 monstered up 997 turbos (620 Bhp) and these are no flighweights. So they must last well.

In fact one of these guiys with the GT2 had got rid of the ceramic discks set up and gone conventional with those pads.

Hope it helps.

Ik have Pagid Blue with my AP racing brakes; they lasted 3 intensive trackdays (Ecuyers, Zolder, Spa) and two trips to the Nurnburgring.

 

[ChawenHalo]

Hope it helps.[/quote]
Ik have Pagid Blue with my AP racing brakes; they lasted 3 intensive trackdays (Ecuyers, Zolder, Spa) and two trips to the Nurnburgring.[/quote]

Is that all Franzino? Do you mean after that you need new pads? You've AP BBK set have you not?

You happy with them?

 

[Franzino]

Is that all Franzino? Do you mean after that you need new pads? You've AP BBK set have you not?
You happy with them?

The Pagid Blue (Rs 4-2) lasted a half year of street driving with 3 all day trackdays and 2 days Nurburgring (so 5 days of track driving). Then it was time to repleace the Pagid pads. Ok the pads maybe wear faster then others, but they don't wear the rotors (AP discs) much. When the AP kit was first fitted, I was not happy with it (you can find the topic on the forum). Now I'm happy with them!!! Only thing that would make my brakes 100% perfect is a little more initial brake from the pads and that the Rs4-2 pads would be a little quieter in normal slow traffic (still Pagid Yellow make more noise). Next time; im trying some other Pagid pads.

 

[Franzino]

Is the real benefit of the BBKs that only the expensive/best pads will fit?

It's a giant con!

The real benefit is higher thermal capacity because of the bigger, thicker rotors and callipers and superior braking feel. To that extend i saw a huge improvement. Not much more stopping power, if any improvement at all, but very good braking feel and stamina. If you want better stopping power then you need a more aggressive pad, not more pistons/larger disc.

+1
Exactly the same ecperience with my AP racing kit. Stopping power is almost the same as oem... But they brake everytime hard, time after time and give a lot of confidence. The biggest improvement are the braking feel and no fade on track. When I got my Z4M I did one trackday with the full original brakes. They faded and I did not have a lot confidence in the oem brakes.

On the street the upgrade to a BBK is a waste of money in my opinion. I only bought the AP kit, because I do arround +/- 8 days of trackdriving a year. I never experimented with upgrading the oem Z4M brakes...so I don't know how good you can make them preform with some modifications. I thought; why waste time and money on modifying the oem Z4M brakes, when the end result would probably not satisfy me.

Yes; it's true AP brakes are not cheap.. But in the long run I'm saving some money (if you do a lot of trackdays and keep the car a long time). AP rotors cost almost the same then oem rotors and last longer. Also; I saved money with not modifying the oem brakes.

 

[ChawenHalo]

interesting. IU'll let you know in a year's time and after so many trackdays...

 

[DONDP]

Hi chaps,

Just spotted this thread. I have been tracking my z4m quite heavily the last 18 months and have tried a few different pad compounds including pagid blues and ferrodo ds2500s.

None of them stood up to the abuse and eventually caused brake judder due to uneven pad deposits on the discs. Although perhaps the pagid yellows would work....

I was about to give up and buy some APs but was strongly advised to try some Carbone Lorraine's. What can I say about these pads, if you want to stop time after time get them! You will boil the fluid before these pads fade. I was blown away.

I have been using them on the road and they work fine too. The only problem is they do rattle a bit as they have no retaining clips like other pads. They seem to rattle more in the rear so I am now on ebc yellows on the rear with Carbonne Lorraines up front. Rattles on the odd occasion but I am more than happy to put up with it for the sake of the brake performance.




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[DONDP]

Hi chaps,

Just spotted this thread. I have been tracking my z4m quite heavily the last 18 months and have tried a few different pad compounds including pagid blues and ferrodo ds2500s.

None of them stood up to the abuse and eventually caused brake judder due to uneven pad deposits on the discs. Although perhaps the pagid yellows would work....

I was about to give up and buy some APs but was strongly advised to try some Carbone Lorraine's. What can I say about these pads, if you want to stop time after time get them! You will boil the fluid before these pads fade. I was blown away.

I have been using them on the road and they work fine too. The only problem is they do rattle a bit as they have no retaining clips like other pads. They seem to rattle more in the rear so I am now on ebc yellows on the rear with Carbonne Lorraines up front. Rattles on the odd occasion but I am more than happy to put up with it for the sake of the brake performance.




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[DONDP]

Nice... Double post, thanks tapatalk...


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[exdos]

I have been using them on the road and they work fine too. The only problem is they do rattle a bit as they have no retaining clips like other pads. They seem to rattle more in the rear so I am now on ebc yellows on the rear with Carbonne Lorraines up front. Rattles on the odd occasion but I am more than happy to put up with it for the sake of the brake performance.

Don,

I've also heard rave reviews about them and mentioned them earlier in this thread. Have you monitored the disc wear rate with them, if so, how are your discs holding up? What tyres are you using them with on track?

 

[DONDP]

I have been using them on the road and they work fine too. The only problem is they do rattle a bit as they have no retaining clips like other pads. They seem to rattle more in the rear so I am now on ebc yellows on the rear with Carbonne Lorraines up front. Rattles on the odd occasion but I am more than happy to put up with it for the sake of the brake performance.

Don,

I've also heard rave reviews about them and mentioned them earlier in this thread. Have you monitored the disc wear rate with them, if so, how are your discs holding up? What tyres are you using them with on track?

So far I have done 1 track day and about 2000 road miles on them I put new disks on the front about 8 months ago and new on the rear when I put the CL pads in 3 months ago. I only swapped the rears out for the EBCs at the weekend and I couldn't see any sign of excessive wear if any at all, but then they haven't been on that long... Time will tell.

One thing I did forget to mention is they generate a lot of dust. But if you like me I just clean it of every couple of days and all is well.

The tyres I have been using are Michelin ps2s...


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[Beedub]

DONDP CL pads are awesome but they have one pitfall that really puts me off the chemicals they use are extremely corrosive, so they are eating alloy paint and bodywork paint very quickly, one of the guys @ my local Sdcc had actual damage to the body work after not washing the car for a while, so i agree with your statement, if using the CL pads you need to be washing the car very reguarly....

Dusty pads dont bother me at all as its a side effect of pads the are operating correctly....


i can concur however the the CL pads are pretty awesome....

 

[DONDP]

Bee,

I found a few comments relating to the corrosive nature of these pads and after a bit more investigation the major problems seemed to be with the earlier RC5 pads. I have the RC5+ pads which are meant to be much improved. It would be interesting to know what pads the chap at your sdcc was running?

 

[ChawenHalo]

I can only comment in the RS29:
They heat up fairly quickly
braking is very consistent once at operating temp 450° to 600°
Being endurance pads they OK on disk wear
No retaining clips so they ratle in the OEM calipers like saucepans
Dirty buggers, lots of dust
Always, invariably squeel a lot or a lot and loudly
Great feel throughout the pedal on both road and track
definatly require braided hoses and DOT 5

 

[Beedub]

Bee,

I found a few comments relating to the corrosive nature of these pads and after a bit more investigation the major problems seemed to be with the earlier RC5 pads. I have the RC5+ pads which are meant to be much improved. It would be interesting to know what pads the chap at your sdcc was running?

i will find out sunday as were meeting up for a run down to the sprint course, the damage to his paintwork was signifcant and the dust has almost imbedded into the paint causing pitting, i was pretty shocked by this BUT.. as with everything, mods do come with pitfalls, its great to hear they have modified the compound as the older units were almost certain to damage paint which is pointless!!!

 

[Franzino]

Hi chaps,

Just spotted this thread. I have been tracking my z4m quite heavily the last 18 months and have tried a few different pad compounds including pagid blues and ferrodo ds2500s.

None of them stood up to the abuse and eventually caused brake judder due to uneven pad deposits on the discs. Although perhaps the pagid yellows would work....

I was about to give up and buy some APs but was strongly advised to try some Carbone Lorraine's. What can I say about these pads, if you want to stop time after time get them! You will boil the fluid before these pads fade. I was blown away.

I have been using them on the road and they work fine too. The only problem is they do rattle a bit as they have no retaining clips like other pads. They seem to rattle more in the rear so I am now on ebc yellows on the rear with Carbonne Lorraines up front. Rattles on the odd occasion but I am more than happy to put up with it for the sake of the brake performance.

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From what I have read the Ferodo ds2500 are more fast street pads then track pads. They are rated below the Pagid blue (RS 4-2). I have used the Pagid RS 4-2 for 8 months now (I'm on my second RS4-2 set) and done some intensive track days. They worked well on track and also on the street. It's really difficult to find a dual purpose brake pad that preforms good on track and street (and that also is quiet). Pagid Yellow preforms great on track, but the squealing noise they make on the street is far worse then the Pagid Blue. If I had a car with the only purpose track days, then it would be Pagid Yellow for me.

For breaking in the Pagid pads, the firs time I have used the Stoptech procedure and the second time the Pagid procedure (IMO with the Pagid procedure they are more silent and preform a little better).

What do you mean with retaining clips? Are this clips to avoid the brake pads from rattling or from less squealing? I don't know how it is on the oem Z4M calipers, but for the AP kit there are no Pagid Blue, Yellow available with anti-squeal shims. On the other hand anti rattling clips are something the AP kit has standard on their calipers (is this not so on the oem Z4M calipers?). Never had any problems with rattling noise on the AP kit (only squealing). One anti rattling clip disappeared once after a track day...big difference in noise!