Total BMW mag gives Z4MC a thumbs down!
- Thread starter LeeZ4MR
- Start date
Its way to harsh and oversprung,crashy and without compliance..
Under hard power over undulations in the road i could literally get the rear wheels to "hop" off the road surface..
Just try some H&R's Redun an see how better the car feels on the road.. If you dont feel any benefit,its only a cheap try..
Under hard power over undulations in the road i could literally get the rear wheels to "hop" off the road surface..
Just try some H&R's Redun an see how better the car feels on the road.. If you dont feel any benefit,its only a cheap try..
RedUn said:
I live in the sticks and do most of my driving on rural A&B roads (i.e. the twisties) and the ride is very uncomfortable and it makes my neck and shoulders ache because the rear suspension is just far too stiff and causes jarring. I've never owned any other car which has done this. With regard to the handling: under hard acceleration the front end lifts which makes the steering "floaty" and very imprecise, especially when overtaking on cambered rural roads, and when braking, the car pitches onto the front end which unbalances the F/R braking effort and causes understeer.
I agree it's hard to believe that BMW signed off the dreadful OEM suspension, but they did. I now have AC Schnitzer Racing suspension on my Z4MC, the specification of which has been determined by an acknowledged suspension expert; Manfred Woolgarten. The ACS suspension is way better than the Z4MC's OEM kit, and it has very different spring rates to the OEM: i.e. stiffer front and softer rear springs. Why?RedUn said:
I've now got my Z4MC so that the ride is comfortable with no jarring, there is virtually no squatting, lifting or pitching and with minimal lateral bodyroll. The car feels "flat" all the time and it has neutral handling with great turn-in.
exdos said:
This is a big downfall. I have to do something about mine.
.. Just catching up with the thread, first off it's good to be in a forum with owners that are passionate about their z cars 
The question regarding who likes what and what is better is always interesting to hear, but at the end of the day horses for courses and all that, we all have our different tastes, requirements and situations.
On the initial post subject, I've seen so many differing magazine opinions, for instance even that declining quality mag Evo has an interesting comment IIRC "A real drivers car, need to get stuck in" and those same guys (barker/etc) have been testing and opining on cars for a long time since the old "performance car" magazine if anyone remembers it.
The Chris Harris comment is interesting because I think he's got normally good thoughts on cars but you know he's a porsche lover, but he is right on some aspects of the Z.
I would agree that the zmc is a little harsh, but I want that solid ride, and massive thick go kart steering wheel, bum on the road, feet forward, can't see the edge of the bonnet feeling.
The z is also pretty snappy at dry grip/nogrip transition, the number of times the tc saved my ass for the last two winters with the greasy roads even on non-sport mode. So I don't tend to push it too exteme on open A-B roads even in the dry, but when the snow comes down, TC off Sport on and the fun begins, it's pretty catchable/controllable and very agile from the short wheelbase (I think).
The problem with auto journo's are that they get to drive lots of nice/good cars, and they loose sight of what it means to own cars. Like why do so many people buy/own alfas for instance.
I love the old long bonnet front engine cars such as Austin Healey 3000, Etype, DB4, Daytona, 250gt etc, so the z4 styling is bang on the money and I'm lucky enough to have the car that echos the old sentiment... in fact I'd love to get a set of borrini wire wheels and a pair of old big hella spots but I'm sure I'd get banned from the forum :roll:
From an owner perspective the Z is a solid car, 100bhp+ per litre, great sounding NA engine, easy maintenance (e.g. replacing oil and s.plugs without dropping the engine), will run happily on 95ron (which I confess to doing after optimax went above £1 per litre), snug 2 seater with plenty of boot space and all wrapped up in a neat package that you can happily park in multi-story sized spaces without worrying that someone will bump/scrape you because it's too wide/long.
It's getting late, but the eye of the beholder and all that, but I reckon the zmc/r is a steal at the current prices and sure to be a future classic... I think EVO also did a feature on buying/owning a zmc earlier in the year...so cant be all that bad
The question regarding who likes what and what is better is always interesting to hear, but at the end of the day horses for courses and all that, we all have our different tastes, requirements and situations.
On the initial post subject, I've seen so many differing magazine opinions, for instance even that declining quality mag Evo has an interesting comment IIRC "A real drivers car, need to get stuck in" and those same guys (barker/etc) have been testing and opining on cars for a long time since the old "performance car" magazine if anyone remembers it.
The Chris Harris comment is interesting because I think he's got normally good thoughts on cars but you know he's a porsche lover, but he is right on some aspects of the Z.
I would agree that the zmc is a little harsh, but I want that solid ride, and massive thick go kart steering wheel, bum on the road, feet forward, can't see the edge of the bonnet feeling.
The z is also pretty snappy at dry grip/nogrip transition, the number of times the tc saved my ass for the last two winters with the greasy roads even on non-sport mode. So I don't tend to push it too exteme on open A-B roads even in the dry, but when the snow comes down, TC off Sport on and the fun begins, it's pretty catchable/controllable and very agile from the short wheelbase (I think).
The problem with auto journo's are that they get to drive lots of nice/good cars, and they loose sight of what it means to own cars. Like why do so many people buy/own alfas for instance.
I love the old long bonnet front engine cars such as Austin Healey 3000, Etype, DB4, Daytona, 250gt etc, so the z4 styling is bang on the money and I'm lucky enough to have the car that echos the old sentiment... in fact I'd love to get a set of borrini wire wheels and a pair of old big hella spots but I'm sure I'd get banned from the forum :roll:
From an owner perspective the Z is a solid car, 100bhp+ per litre, great sounding NA engine, easy maintenance (e.g. replacing oil and s.plugs without dropping the engine), will run happily on 95ron (which I confess to doing after optimax went above £1 per litre), snug 2 seater with plenty of boot space and all wrapped up in a neat package that you can happily park in multi-story sized spaces without worrying that someone will bump/scrape you because it's too wide/long.
It's getting late, but the eye of the beholder and all that, but I reckon the zmc/r is a steal at the current prices and sure to be a future classic... I think EVO also did a feature on buying/owning a zmc earlier in the year...so cant be all that bad
mad4slalom
Senior member
loads of wildly differing opinions on the 4m's , i do find my coupe rather crashy on bumpy roads and would love to drive one that has been fitted with nitrons or similar set up , if one could improve the ride without detriment to the handling or dare i say it even improve it, for reasonable outlay then i would go for it, any reccomendations (from experience Not hearsay,) appreciated.
mad4slalom said:loads of wildly differing opinions on the 4m's , i do find my coupe rather crashy on bumpy roads and would love to drive one that has been fitted with nitrons or similar set up , if one could improve the ride without detriment to the handling or dare i say it even improve it, for reasonable outlay then i would go for it, any reccomendations (from experience Not hearsay,) appreciated.
It certainly is possible, as I've described in other threads. I've been through the experience of suspension upgrades on both my Z3MC and Z4MC, both of which I've done all the spanner-work myself and the transformation is superb. You're welcome to experience the car from the passenger seat. It has cost me around £2k each for the upgrades on both cars ( I benefitted from getting the nearly-new ACS suspension for the Z4MC secondhand), for me it's been money well spent. Both cars now handle/ride like cars costing twice the price.
As said earlier, great post!Sae said:.. Just catching up with the thread, first off it's good to be in a forum with owners that are passionate about their z cars
The question regarding who likes what and what is better is always interesting to hear, but at the end of the day horses for courses and all that, we all have our different tastes, requirements and situations.
On the initial post subject, I've seen so many differing magazine opinions, for instance even that declining quality mag Evo has an interesting comment IIRC "A real drivers car, need to get stuck in" and those same guys (barker/etc) have been testing and opining on cars for a long time since the old "performance car" magazine if anyone remembers it.
The Chris Harris comment is interesting because I think he's got normally good thoughts on cars but you know he's a porsche lover, but he is right on some aspects of the Z.
I would agree that the zmc is a little harsh, but I want that solid ride, and massive thick go kart steering wheel, bum on the road, feet forward, can't see the edge of the bonnet feeling.
The z is also pretty snappy at dry grip/nogrip transition, the number of times the tc saved my ass for the last two winters with the greasy roads even on non-sport mode. So I don't tend to push it too exteme on open A-B roads even in the dry, but when the snow comes down, TC off Sport on and the fun begins, it's pretty catchable/controllable and very agile from the short wheelbase (I think).
The problem with auto journo's are that they get to drive lots of nice/good cars, and they loose sight of what it means to own cars. Like why do so many people buy/own alfas for instance.
I love the old long bonnet front engine cars such as Austin Healey 3000, Etype, DB4, Daytona, 250gt etc, so the z4 styling is bang on the money and I'm lucky enough to have the car that echos the old sentiment... in fact I'd love to get a set of borrini wire wheels and a pair of old big hella spots but I'm sure I'd get banned from the forum :roll:
From an owner perspective the Z is a solid car, 100bhp+ per litre, great sounding NA engine, easy maintenance (e.g. replacing oil and s.plugs without dropping the engine), will run happily on 95ron (which I confess to doing after optimax went above £1 per litre), snug 2 seater with plenty of boot space and all wrapped up in a neat package that you can happily park in multi-story sized spaces without worrying that someone will bump/scrape you because it's too wide/long.
It's getting late, but the eye of the beholder and all that, but I reckon the zmc/r is a steal at the current prices and sure to be a future classic... I think EVO also did a feature on buying/owning a zmc earlier in the year...so cant be all that bad
I see a parallel between the Z3MC and Z4MC. About 7 or 8 years ago on the Z3M Coupe forum everyone used to discuss the whys and wherefores of BMW extended warranties and were scared to do anything that was considered might give BMW the chance to invalidate any claims because aftermarket parts had been fitted. At the same time owners criticised the lairy handling of the Z3MC, particularly in the wet, but didn't want to modify anything because they had warranties. Catch 22. Then a few of us started to address the suspension issues and we fitted aftermarket suspension and found that the handling was greatly improved. Other Z3MC owners then had the chance to experience the transformations some of us had got and the word soon spread. Nowadays, it's commonplace to upgrade the OEM suspension on Z3MCs (KWV3 and H&R ARBs) and few owners seem to think twice about doing it.
It seems to me that most Z4MC owners are loathe to modify the suspension, possibly for the same reasons as were Z3MC owners when their cars were newer? I bet in a few more years more owners will ditch the OEM suspension in favour of much better aftermarket suspension set-ups. Then, it'll be generally acknowledged by Z4MC owners that the Z4MC's OEM suspension is dreadful. IMO, it's not the press that have got this wrong.
It seems to me that most Z4MC owners are loathe to modify the suspension, possibly for the same reasons as were Z3MC owners when their cars were newer? I bet in a few more years more owners will ditch the OEM suspension in favour of much better aftermarket suspension set-ups. Then, it'll be generally acknowledged by Z4MC owners that the Z4MC's OEM suspension is dreadful. IMO, it's not the press that have got this wrong.
exdos said:mad4slalom said:loads of wildly differing opinions on the 4m's , i do find my coupe rather crashy on bumpy roads and would love to drive one that has been fitted with nitrons or similar set up , if one could improve the ride without detriment to the handling or dare i say it even improve it, for reasonable outlay then i would go for it, any reccomendations (from experience Not hearsay,) appreciated.
It certainly is possible, as I've described in other threads. I've been through the experience of suspension upgrades on both my Z3MC and Z4MC, both of which I've done all the spanner-work myself and the transformation is superb. You're welcome to experience the car from the passenger seat. It has cost me around £2k each for the upgrades on both cars ( I benefitted from getting the nearly-new ACS suspension for the Z4MC secondhand), for me it's been money well spent. Both cars now handle/ride like cars costing twice the price.
exdos - would love to experience your setup. Sounds very interesting
I don't own my z outright, and even though it's out of warranty I'm reluctant to swap from OEM susp, also because I've still got OEM alloys.
Doesn't mean to say I'm not planning to though...
When you think about it £2k for a more pliant ride isn't that much in comparison to the value of the car. I've been a biker in the past, and the first recommended mod is always to get the suspension setup for the rider/weight feel. Most bikers on average I guess would do £3k for a decent bike and then £1K for a top of the range susp setup. Then also add £1k for magnesium alloys for even better handling/response. That's before brakes...
So compare that to Z car terms so £2k for susp and £3k for a set of forged two piece alloys is comparative percentage value mod bargain
What would be interesting, is to get out of the Z4MC BMW development team why the z4mc setup is 'a bit on the stiff side', was it because:
a. They ran out of time for R&D
b. They didn't have any off the shelf parts and couldn't manufacture a new setup
c. They ran out of money for R&D, given small run volume
d. They truly engineered it that way
e. It was built in the USA and they have different viewpoint regarding sporting ride
...I read a while back that Walter Rorhl of the Porsche development team has his own Carrera GT, and he doesn't get it out much and is gathering dust... he said they didn't have enough time to develop and test tyres for the car so it doesn't quite handle how he'd like it. Quite frightening, £300k worth of hyper car that doesn't quite have the right tyres
Sae said:exdos - would love to experience your setup. Sounds very interesting
Send me a PM of your whereabouts.
Sae said:
I think it was deliberately engineered that way. I think you have to look at the Z4MC as being an Evo of the Z3MC. As I've said earlier, the Z3MC has a well-deserved reputation for being lairy, particularly in the wet, and this is due to the Z3MC having suspension which is way too soft, with lots of vertical play which allows large load shifts, fore, aft, laterally and diagonally so the car has a natural propensity to oversteer. This is fine on smooth surfaces, but certain road conditions can occur which act on the suspension without driver input and cause sudden load transfer which destabilises the car and can catch the driver out with snap oversteer. The suspension of the Z3MC does not contain the power of the engine (S54 in the later model) although the ride is very nice. The Z3MC is inherently unsafe.
Against that background, I believe that the Z4MC was engineered to resist lateral bodyroll, fishtailing on hard acceleration and to tend towards understeer. Although the Z4MC and Z3MC are very similar in weight and have the same front suspension type, the Z4MC has a wider track, stiffer ARBs and stiffer springs/dampers, particularly at the rear. In fact the rear springs on the Z4MC are thicker than the rear ARB of the Z3MC!
Likewise, the geometry of the Z4MC has plenty of toe-in, notable negative camber, particularly at the rear, all of which resists oversteer. The Z4MC is inherently a safer car than the Z3MC. Unfortunately, the fact that the occupants of the Z4MC are effectively sitting on 19mm springs, makes the ride on all but the smoothest of roads uncomfortable. Apparently, the human body cannot normally cope with suspension which oscillates at a frequency greater than 2Hz and stiff suspensions act at a higher frequency. So when the stiff suspension of the Z4MC is travelling on our bad roads, there's just too much road input which make the suspension oscillate at a higher frequency and with greater amplitude than would occur on smooth tracks.A suspension set up is always going to be a compromise between ride and handling, and for me, the Z4MC has fallen short on both counts. From my own first hand experience of modifying the suspension of both the Z3MC and Z4MC, it is possible to produce a far better compromise than the OEM set ups for both cars. I think James May is right when he says that all the focus on testing at the Nordschleife has ruined the ride on lots of modern cars, and in the case of the Z4MC, it's not as though the ride has been compromised for supreme handling, which the car certainly hasn't got.
tomscott said:
Good find Tom. I agree it is a balanced accurate review.
I think all the negative posts recently reflect journos/people not "getting" the car, it's not supposed to be perfect and compliant. It's always had the caveat that it's not a car 'for the faint hearted', 'you've got to be prepared to get stuck in' etc.
That's what makes it unique. A niche within an niche. If you are after something else go buy a Porsche/Audi/etc.
How about this article for a rational opinion on the Z4MC and its comparison with the Cayman S? http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2006-porsche-cayman-s-page-3