To sue or not to sue... Updated result

[Ducklakeview]

In fact, after some good points made by Angie4m and sars I would possibly do this a slightly different way.

Its not a choice of weather to accept the goodwill gesture or sue them as you can in fact do both!

Take them up on the offer and make it well known to them you are doing it grudgingly and do not at any point waive your right to pursue a claim, if you dont make out that you are considering it then they will be very unlikely to ask you to.

Tell them that you want to keep the old panels to inspect if you are having to pay for the repair.

Get the repair done, pay your £700 collect the old panels and then get them examined by a paint expert. If they say it is related to the finishing of the panels and specifically not your misuse then you can go back to BMW to try and get a refund of your £700+ costs getting the panels checked... If they refuse at this point its then time to sue

Good course of action to take, means you can get the repair done and argue the toss later..

Mike

 

[Pastry]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, have you been advised that there is corrosion of the Aluminium under the paint? Pure aluminium self passivates in air, an alloy of Aluminium may not but is dependent on grade, which we have no idea of. Even so, I would find it unlikely that it has without prior damage to the paint (stone chip etcetera). Why I say this is that it may not be a corrosion issue rather a paint bonding issue which may help your cause, however you would need to seek professional advise/analysis from a paint specialist.

There is no damage to the external paint and the roof has blistered in 3 places involving both roof panels. I really don't think BMW are interested what caused it, they are just excluding the roof panels full stop :thumbsdown:

 

[EdButler]

You paying BMW £700 is effectively paying for it all, albeit at cost price. As said before, get another quote before committing and if the difference is minimal, go for it. They have effectively already admitted fault but are trying to pull a fast one.

Make sure that if you take the offer AND want to sue, that you don't commit to anything 'final'. I wont pretend to know about such laws however so its worth a read up.

End of the day its your time/stress and use your gut. Just bear in mind, 50% of those who propose 'sue' would probably not do so themselves in the same situation!

 

[Pastry]

The small claims track is easy and painless. They use goodwill so as not to admit liability but you can try to counter that if you wish.
Their defense that the roof isn't covered is easy to dispute as above. If they try and use the defense that damage has cause it you may need to find an expert witness.
Depending on your correspondence so far I would write to the managing director explaining and that you are considering legal action. If that fails then a final letter outlining your demands with time to respond before issuing the claim. I charge for correspondence costs and add on any travel for inspections. Depending on how long you have had the car it may be worth perusing the seller (if trade) as well for it not being fit for purpose.
Once a claim arrived at bmw I would expect them to settle for the full amount as it's not worth sending anyone from legal to defend and a loss would set a precedent. Can't bank on it though.

There has never been a dispute about paint damage, the BMW technician was happy that the corrosion was internal and the roof paint was original. I have spoken to dealership then on to BMW Uk who have made their position clear that their current offer is final. I have responded by informing them that as I'm on holiday, I reserve judgement until I return home and speak to trading standards again and take legal advice about taking them to court :thumbsdown:

 

[Pastry]

I mentioned this in your other thread, but the threat of going to the motoring press (who would have a field day with this) worked for my father when Audi's "final offer" was similar when his aluminium R8 bonnet rusted and bubbled...

Simple threat of seeing what they have to say about your experience may shift their response...

I am pursuing this and have already mentioned it to BMW but they weren't bothered. Im still going to though

 

[85genius]

In fact, after some good points made by Angie4m and sars I would possibly do this a slightly different way.

Its not a choice of weather to accept the goodwill gesture or sue them as you can in fact do both!

Take them up on the offer and make it well known to them you are doing it grudgingly and do not at any point waive your right to pursue a claim, if you dont make out that you are considering it then they will be very unlikely to ask you to.

Tell them that you want to keep the old panels to inspect if you are having to pay for the repair.

Get the repair done, pay your £700 collect the old panels and then get them examined by a paint expert. If they say it is related to the finishing of the panels and specifically not your misuse then you can go back to BMW to try and get a refund of your £700+ costs getting the panels checked... If they refuse at this point its then time to sue

Good course of action to take, means you can get the repair done and argue the toss later..

Mike

And I just thought but doing it this way also means that you are only suing for £700 instead of over £3000 which gives a twofold benefit to you when you finally come to sue....

Firstly they are much more likely to just accept a claim for £700 than they are a claim for £3k+ at £700 it really is not worth them fighting it.

Also the court fees (you have to pay in advance with MCOL but get them back from the defendant when you win) are also reduced £70 for a claim under £1000 compared to £185 for a claim over that...

So this is my advice pay the £700 then sue them for it later! Judging from what you have said there is probably no need for you to get the panels off them but if for some reason they decide it might be worth fighting it would be nice to take them into court with you! Even if not if you go in armed with the warranty documents loads of photos and all the correspondence between you and the dealer and BMWUK I cant see how you can lose, and even if you do lose you only lose £70 and a bit of your time.

 

[85genius]

Just had another thought and pretty much convinced myself they will settle when you sue for £700 it comes down to this....

There is a very good chance they will lose, they may win but I honestly think they don't want to set a legal precedent against their warranty as if they settle at the £700 with you they can go on refusing others claims whereas if you win in court they have to pay out everyone with a similar claim.

Its not worth the risk of you winning to them it could [potentially cost them much much more than your claim!

 

[Pastry]

Would that mean that the doors, bonnet and boot aren't covered, an haven't coupes had boot issues done under warranty

Exactly! They are taking the piss

I think what they then might argue is that as the roof is in two pieces with a rubber seal inbetween that possibly water may have leaked into the panel and caused the corrosion from the inside. BMW do not cover seals and I would therefore think that any metal part that requires the seal to stop water ingress and subsequently doesn't have any drain holes may well be excluded but if that is the case then BMW need to state that both in this instance and going forward.

Personally I'd take the offer of £700. It's a ballache but at least when it's done if there is any issues you will have a two year warranty from BMW. Then after you could persue them for breach of T&Cs.

Possibly also ask them to keep the pannels and have you view them to assertain if it has been caused by water inside or if it has been a paint bonding issue as Sars has mentioned. If it was the latter I think you would have good grounds to speak with BMW again before any money has changed hands.

I think you've got some very good points there. Both roof panels are corroded at the front edge, 1 patch on the front panel and 2 smaller patches on the rear roof panel. They know I am extremely unhappy and I've thrown pretty much everything at them apart from the kitchen sink so I would be surprised if their offer doesn't have a 'full and final settlement' attached to it! If Im honest I would settle for £300 or £400 but getting bullied out of £710 is making it hard to stomach!

 

[Scooba_Steve]

Do you have that from the BMW tech in writing?

While I think accepting the goodwill and suing after would be effective (as there is only £700 to dispute) I believe you'd have to dispute the amount when paying and in doing so BMW may not carry out the work. I suppose you could pay under protest?

You will still have to write to BMW before you submit a claim. An extra letter to the MD is a worthwhile final attempt to genuinely resolve the dispute and can only count in your favour.

 

[Pastry]

Just had another thought and pretty much convinced myself they will settle when you sue for £700 it comes down to this....

There is a very good chance they will lose, they may win but I honestly think they don't want to set a legal precedent against their warranty as if they settle at the £700 with you they can go on refusing others claims whereas if you win in court they have to pay out everyone with a similar claim.

Its not worth the risk of you winning to them it could [potentially cost them much much more than your claim!

I hadn't thought of the repercussions for them, they have a lot more to lose than me!

 

[Pastry]

Do you have that from the BMW tech in writing?

While I think accepting the goodwill and suing after would be effective (as there is only £700 to dispute) I believe you'd have to dispute the amount when paying and in doing so BMW may not carry out the work. I suppose you could pay under protest?

You will still have to write to BMW before you submit a claim. An extra letter to the MD is a worthwhile final attempt to genuinely resolve the dispute and can only count in your favour.

I agree, but I expect they'll want "full and final" out of me before finalising their "generous gesture" :thumbsdown:

 

[sars]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, have you been advised that there is corrosion of the Aluminium under the paint? Pure aluminium self passivates in air, an alloy of Aluminium may not but is dependent on grade, which we have no idea of. Even so, I would find it unlikely that it has without prior damage to the paint (stone chip etcetera). Why I say this is that it may not be a corrosion issue rather a paint bonding issue which may help your cause, however you would need to seek professional advise/analysis from a paint specialist.

There is no damage to the external paint and the roof has blistered in 3 places involving both roof panels. I really don't think BMW are interested what caused it, they are just excluding the roof panels full stop :thumbsdown:

Okay, so if I was footing the bill, pay the £700 and then take them to the small claims court afterwards to claim it back, though I would not be claiming against the corrosion warranty but on a manufacturing defect. You will need to get it examined by an independent authority to confirm, but I'm betting during paint preparation the surface was not cleaned adequately and spots of release agent were left on the surface, paint does not adhere properly and when it gets hot it lifts/bubbles

 

[85genius]

Do you have that from the BMW tech in writing?

While I think accepting the goodwill and suing after would be effective (as there is only £700 to dispute) I believe you'd have to dispute the amount when paying and in doing so BMW may not carry out the work. I suppose you could pay under protest?

You will still have to write to BMW before you submit a claim. An extra letter to the MD is a worthwhile final attempt to genuinely resolve the dispute and can only count in your favour.

I agree, but I expect they'll want "full and final" out of me before finalising their "generous gesture" :thumbsdown:

Maybe but maybe not, there is every chance that they will seeing this as a "generous" gesture not expect you to take action after the fact especially for the "paltry" sum of £700....

I'd play along with them and write another email to whoever authorised this "fantastic" deal saying you had time to mull it over and feel that to prevent the fault worsening the best course of action is to grudgingly take them up on their offer although you still think it should be fully funded by them.

There is a good chance they will just fire something off to your dealer to authorise it and never mention full and final or any other waiving of your rights....

Of course if they do then it's time to reconsider your actions again but if not just get the £700 paid then sue em for it back..

You could even pay it on your credit card then you have a co claimant in the court case but maybe that is taking it a bit to far

 

[maxman]

Have you tried the Autoexpress route yet.There is no way the would want the bad publicity .

 

[Pastry]

Have you tried the Autoexpress route yet.There is no way the would want the bad publicity .

Not Yet, BMW UK started emailing me so I put it on standby although I did tell BMW I was going to. Now they have finalised their position I will contact Autoexpress

 

[TitanTim]

Sorry to hear its come to this You might find once you start going through the small claims court process that BMW will back down as its just not worth their bother etc together with bad publicity, however you won't know that until you kick the process off, I would think though if you lost the case you will get stung, costs etc.

I would agree in paying the 700 quid and then try to recoup the cost through small claims. All I would say is I found the small claims court process dissapointing when I took a Toyota dealer to court which took a year, was painfully slow and although I won the case I received no costs from lost days at work attending the court sessions, it was a bit of a farce really. I sold the car about 2 weeks after I won the case.

Tim.

 

[ronk]

I doubt that you will be able to go to law to reclaim the £700
The acceptance of their offer will I am sure include a caveat which will prevent any further actions !
If I was Herr BMW thats what my offer would include!

 

[Pastry]

I would agree in paying the 700 quid and then try to recoup the cost through small claims. All I would say is I found the small claims court process dissapointing when I took a Toyota dealer to court which took a year, was painfully slow and although I won the case I received no costs from lost days at work attending the court sessions, it was a bit of a farce really. I sold the car about 2 weeks after I won the case.
Tim.

Thats pretty much where I am with it now but I expect Ronk is right and Herr BMW will be expecting that and preventing it

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

I would give BBC1 Watchdog a shot, they seem to enjoy having a go at the large motor companies.
Just send them your story, what have you got to lose. link

 

[85genius]

I would agree in paying the 700 quid and then try to recoup the cost through small claims. All I would say is I found the small claims court process dissapointing when I took a Toyota dealer to court which took a year, was painfully slow and although I won the case I received no costs from lost days at work attending the court sessions, it was a bit of a farce really. I sold the car about 2 weeks after I won the case.
Tim.

Thats pretty much where I am with it now but I expect Ronk is right and Herr BMW will be expecting that and preventing it

Maybe not.... I just spoke to someone else who had a similar battle with BMW ended up with a "generous" (over 2k discount from a 3.5k bill) no mention of full and final or any other waiver alongside the settlement