tick tick tick please help...!
- Thread starter pHilli0
- Start date
Well, there's 24 followers to check.. if someone doesn't thoroughly check them, they'll just miss the one that's very slightly worn.. and that's all it takes.
When i say worn, i mean.. 1mm of wear is enough to make it sound terrible. I can't remember from the thread if your car has been re-shimmed recently (usually inspection 2 service), it might end up just being a shim that's totally not the right size. I think the cause of my car having issues was BMW not shimming properly.
I think CPC were just more methodical and thorough, more than anything. I hung around whilst they listened to the engine with a long dowel but it's hard to pin down the source of the noise.. bear in mind it could be a follower at the front or back of the engine.. meaning lesser experienced people will assume it's the vanos, or manifold, or ... etcetc
When i say worn, i mean.. 1mm of wear is enough to make it sound terrible. I can't remember from the thread if your car has been re-shimmed recently (usually inspection 2 service), it might end up just being a shim that's totally not the right size. I think the cause of my car having issues was BMW not shimming properly.
I think CPC were just more methodical and thorough, more than anything. I hung around whilst they listened to the engine with a long dowel but it's hard to pin down the source of the noise.. bear in mind it could be a follower at the front or back of the engine.. meaning lesser experienced people will assume it's the vanos, or manifold, or ... etcetc
First quick update from the investigation. They have seen varying degrees of wear on the cam at a number of points, some small to the worst at cylinder 6, being scored. Gonna look at the clearances and followers tomorrow when its stone cold and update me...not the news I was hoping for but to be expected after everyone's feedback. 
jimmybell said:
The shims were looked at 10,000 miles ago at inspection one by an indy before I bought the car. I will know tomorrow if one of them was out. Let say they are off, if they reshim correctly the noise may go away but what is the result of having a cam with wear on it? Lower performance? Do I need to replace the cam and followers regardless now even if the noise goes away? Not that I am looking for a reason to go Schrick lol
If the hardening has come off the face of the follower or cam,then it will have to be replaced....
I dont think there is anyway to avoid this happening to be honest,i think if your unlucky it will just happen..
Obviously getting the valve clearances done at correct intervals is a given,but in reality even a wide valve clearance should not make the follower face wear excessively..
I dont think there is anyway to avoid this happening to be honest,i think if your unlucky it will just happen..
Obviously getting the valve clearances done at correct intervals is a given,but in reality even a wide valve clearance should not make the follower face wear excessively..
Could worn cam lobes/followers happen due to incorrect oil at some point or revving to the lights when cold :?
It always concerns me with any car when folks crack them from cold & rev the nuts off them ( not saying the OP has been doing this of course )
My neighbour has had brand new R32s , Rs4 ,S4 & currently has a 3 week old RS6 , every morning without fail he will start & rev the car 2/3 times hard before firing up the road .
He also takes greet glee if someone calls round to show them the engine + exhaust noise when i know for a fact the car is cold
It always concerns me with any car when folks crack them from cold & rev the nuts off them ( not saying the OP has been doing this of course )
My neighbour has had brand new R32s , Rs4 ,S4 & currently has a 3 week old RS6 , every morning without fail he will start & rev the car 2/3 times hard before firing up the road .
He also takes greet glee if someone calls round to show them the engine + exhaust noise when i know for a fact the car is cold
In theory it shouldnt happen..... Oil is held in the top of the engine and it has full pressure as it cranks from start....
So starvation shouldnt be an issue.... Of course if it ran low on oil then it would shag everything...
But...The S54 doesnt like being reved from cold.....It has a tendency to spin the rod bearings,so perhaps the followers like the oil to be nice and thin..
And.....I dont think extended oil servicing helps...For what it costs its best to change oil between services.
So starvation shouldnt be an issue.... Of course if it ran low on oil then it would shag everything...
But...The S54 doesnt like being reved from cold.....It has a tendency to spin the rod bearings,so perhaps the followers like the oil to be nice and thin..
And.....I dont think extended oil servicing helps...For what it costs its best to change oil between services.
TomK said:
Shame. Would you mind sending me the CSL cam and schrick followers links? Want to be prepared when they call tomorrow and talk options. Is there anything different for the fit if I go with this option over the stock ones? If I am in this deep anything to do?
pHilli0 said:
Sorry don't have the links but they should be found on ca's website. I'm pretty sure Schrick do 3 versions of the cams, one oem spec, one csl spec (288/80) and one more even wilder set that requires deletion of the vanos.
All are a little cheaper than the oem bmw price and I think I'm right in saying that Schrick actually made the oem csl cams for bmw. So regardless of your choice of spec I would buy Schrick. As far as I am aware there is no difference in the installation of the first two options. The issue arrives I guess if you choose the csl spec of getting it mapped correctly on our ecu's which are quite different to m3/csl.
If the wear on the cams and followers is really quite bad you should inspect the bottom end I'd say before rebuilding as worst case you'd be better off sourcing another engine.
zmaster007
Member
My car has started making nasty cam noises over the last 50 miles or so - sounds metallic like the videos I've seen. . Car is under BMW AUC warranty, with full BMW service history - someone put my mind at rest and tell me this should be covered..!? Ins 2 was done 8000 miles ago with no issues flagged.
. Car is under BMW AUC warranty, with full BMW service history - someone put my mind at rest and tell me this should be covered..!? Ins 2 was done 8000 miles ago with no issues flagged.TomK said:
Hmmm.......I see what you mean. So oem is obviously just a like for like swap but the csl cam will require a remap. You are running the csl cams? Who did your remap and is that an option for me?
From the initial inspection they didnt say the wear was really bad just that some wear had been found in difference places. So checking the bottom of the engine makes sense but I am hopeful my problem is top of the engine and I got unlucky..
zmaster007 said:My car has started making nasty cam noises over the last 50 miles or so - sounds metallic like the videos I've seen.
Check the small print? I am guessing...Not sure if they would count cam wear as "normal wear and tear" or if they would accept that this is a fault and can be fixed under the policy?
If you have a worn cam lobe or lobes it's highly likely that worn follower(s) are the culprit. Once the case hardening had failed on one surface, the other surface will rapidly be damaged. Getting the cams re ground is not an option so you're looking at a new camshaft of perhaps camshafts and new followers - best replace all lest others fail.
The cheapest option is 24 followers from Schrick and secondhand OEM camshafts. Schrik add an additional coating to OEM followers but sell them for less than BMW charge customers for OEM followers (so clearly BMW are happy to rip off their customers).
Next cheapest option is the followers plus new OEM spec or new CSL spec cams from Schrik. This carries the additional cost of new cams vs used and the cost of a remap if you go with the CSL cams. Bear in mind that the extra power you get at the top end with the CSL cams is in exchange for a reduction in low end torque.
Next most expensive is to pay BMW to replace the cams and followers with OEM.
Finally there's the option of the Schrick "race" cams that require a vanos delete and remap as well as leaving you with a car that doesn't like to idle and is severely lacking torque at sensible RPMs but one that will rev its nuts off.
I'd be very surprised if you have an issue with the bearing shells and it would be coincident not consequent upon the problems at the top of the engine. However, I would suggest having them replaced as preventative maintenance.
The E46 M3 boys seem to think the cause of this problem is a lack of oil supply to the top of the engine. This might make sense as oil is simply sprayed around the top of the engine and over the valve gear not specifically supplied to the interfaces. Ask your indy to check the oil ways and clean them thoroughly.
Our cars have a wet sump but it's described as quasi-dry (it's baffled and has a couple of scavenging pumps but still there's an oil pan at the bottom of the engine). As such, oil pickup shouldn't be an issue, even under heavy cornering or aggressive changes in velocity such as during track use. I would, however, check the quality of your oil, change it more frequently in future and look for any evidence of overheating that might have structurally damaged the oil. I check the coolant and oil temperatures continually on track (the former with an OBD II gauge) and come in when the car starts getting hot. I also change my oil at least once between every scheduled service.
I think you're going to get a big bill but you can moderate this if you can source good used cams. Think carefully about paying extra for CSL cams as tuning normally aspirated engines is an expensive root to more performance, especially when compared with the bang-for-buck gains of bolting on a supercharger.
Lastly, if your indy seems unsure or hasn't encountered this before, it's definitely worth taking a trip to see Phil at CPC.
The cheapest option is 24 followers from Schrick and secondhand OEM camshafts. Schrik add an additional coating to OEM followers but sell them for less than BMW charge customers for OEM followers (so clearly BMW are happy to rip off their customers).
Next cheapest option is the followers plus new OEM spec or new CSL spec cams from Schrik. This carries the additional cost of new cams vs used and the cost of a remap if you go with the CSL cams. Bear in mind that the extra power you get at the top end with the CSL cams is in exchange for a reduction in low end torque.
Next most expensive is to pay BMW to replace the cams and followers with OEM.
Finally there's the option of the Schrick "race" cams that require a vanos delete and remap as well as leaving you with a car that doesn't like to idle and is severely lacking torque at sensible RPMs but one that will rev its nuts off.
I'd be very surprised if you have an issue with the bearing shells and it would be coincident not consequent upon the problems at the top of the engine. However, I would suggest having them replaced as preventative maintenance.
The E46 M3 boys seem to think the cause of this problem is a lack of oil supply to the top of the engine. This might make sense as oil is simply sprayed around the top of the engine and over the valve gear not specifically supplied to the interfaces. Ask your indy to check the oil ways and clean them thoroughly.
Our cars have a wet sump but it's described as quasi-dry (it's baffled and has a couple of scavenging pumps but still there's an oil pan at the bottom of the engine). As such, oil pickup shouldn't be an issue, even under heavy cornering or aggressive changes in velocity such as during track use. I would, however, check the quality of your oil, change it more frequently in future and look for any evidence of overheating that might have structurally damaged the oil. I check the coolant and oil temperatures continually on track (the former with an OBD II gauge) and come in when the car starts getting hot. I also change my oil at least once between every scheduled service.
I think you're going to get a big bill but you can moderate this if you can source good used cams. Think carefully about paying extra for CSL cams as tuning normally aspirated engines is an expensive root to more performance, especially when compared with the bang-for-buck gains of bolting on a supercharger.
Lastly, if your indy seems unsure or hasn't encountered this before, it's definitely worth taking a trip to see Phil at CPC.
pHilli0 said:zmaster007 said:My car has started making nasty cam noises over the last 50 miles or so - sounds metallic like the videos I've seen.
Check the small print? I am guessing...Not sure if they would count cam wear as "normal wear and tear" or if they would accept that this is a fault and can be fixed under the policy?
I'm not sure it can be classed as normal wear and tear.
BMWZ4MC said:
Can I just say thanks again for all this detailed info, appreciate it! Without this I would be lost.
So..I don't fancy the race option, going csl cams sounds lovely but at the cost of torque lower down and a remap 15 hp gain may not be worth the hassle factor. Although if ever there was a time to do it it would be now.
Option 1. Sourcing good used second hand cams, I hate ebay as an option. I will ask the indy if they have any good condition cams as the first port of call.
Option 2.
SCHRICK CAMSHAFTS FOR S54 (B32) 6 CYL. 4 VALVE E46 M3 STAGE 1 - £1,212.02 inc. VAT
http://www.ca-int.co.uk/variants-Y2FyX21ha2U9Ym13JmNhcl90eXBlPWU0Nm0mcGFyZW50X2lkPTE1NzE=.html
I assume the above stage 1 is the OEM spec?
UPRATED CAM FOLLOWERS E46 M3 & Z4M - £675.00 inc. VAT
http://www.ca-int.co.uk/single_prod-cHJvZF9pZD0yNDM0JmNhcl9tYWtlPWJtdyZjYXJfdHlwZT1lNDZtJmNhdF9pZD02JmNvbXBfaWQ9MTk=.html
I need those followers regardless of what option I do.
When they call later after the shimming, I will mention the replacement of the bearing shells at the bottom and the cleaning of the oil ways.