The Saga of Trigger's S54....

[Ed Doe]

Hi All,

Firstly, fair warning, this is a long old post. Apologies for this, but it’s been quite a journey to get here, and I thought it worth documenting if others find themselves in this situation in the future.

I also see a fair few posts on recommendations for Rod bearing work etc. popping up, and therefore also want to provide some insight into the fantastic customer experience I have received with Redish Motorsport, who offer this service.

Some background on my car first.

The Bottom End let go on the 1st Owner from new, in 2014 at 59,000miles.
The Engine was rebuilt under warranty by BMW, including the following brand new OE BMW main components;
Block
Crank
Conrods
Oil Pump
Bearings

Since 2014, the car was sold three times – me being the latest purchaser in December 2018, when the car was on 69,000miles (rebuilt engine therefore being on 10,000miles)

I have undertaken a spring Oil Change every March in my ownership, prior to driving the car spiritedly over summer. As I had recently moved house, I did not get much seat-time and no trackdays in 2019, but this year I promised myself I would get out to the ‘ring with some mates, and do at least a couple of trackdays in the UK. Figured I’d kick off with Goodwood as I know the track pretty well, and at this point hadn’t been on track in a couple of years, so felt a little rusty!

Scroll forward to Goodwood on 20th June 2020 – I opted for a half day – Goodwood operates a sessioned format, and a half-day works out at roughly 5 x 20minute sessions for those interested.






I had done 4 sessions, and was in the pitlane queue waiting to get out for the last session. I switched the car on to nose it forwards in the queue – I was in 1st gear at maybe 12-1500rpm, and this horrid clattering noise started. It was one of those moments when I looked at my mate in the passenger seat for a second, and then said “Christ is someone using a power tool around here…. Oh….. that’s the engine…” As anyone will I’m sure be aware, on hearing a horrid clatter from the S54 I immediately assumed the bottom-end had let go (spun bearing and knackered crank and swarf through the whole engine worst case…), so switched it off immediately, got the car pushed back into the paddock, switched it back on for 10seconds to make a short video of the noise for reference, and then called the AA.

https://youtu.be/Ae7CX1c8EE8

Small Aside: Upon arrival, the AA operator, walked straight past me, put his hand on the tyres and said “You’ve been on track, that counts as motorsport, you’re not covered.” He then proceeded to ignore my protestations as to the fact that Trackdays for road-legal vehicles does not count as motorsport, as stated in their own terms & conditions (which is the only reason I maintain my membership with them over any other cheaper providers), called the control room to check that “we don’t cover motorsport do we, no I thought not”, and then left. I took it up with the AA complaints department and was fully reimbursed for the transport cost I had to pay, but this was some weeks afterward…..

So I subsequently got recovered by Midhurst Engineering back o TWG, and then went home, feeling a little sick….





Will @ TWG was incredibly helpful and understanding – he did a bit of preliminary diagnosis around all the other work he had on, checked as best he could the top-end for evidence of a broken valve spring, spat shim, or flattened off rocker arm, and pulled the oil filter to check for swarf. He found a little swarf – which given that the failure had occurred at very low revs and the engine had not been run for long did potentially point to a likely bottom end failure. At that point he said that whilst he could certainly do an engine rebuild for me, they are not an engine rebuild specialist, so he recommended I would be better off speaking to an S54 specialist for quotations.

Pics from Will of the Oil Filter cut open:





I subsequently spoke at length to Mr Vanos, Hack Engineering & Redish Motorsport, getting a feel for what their opinion was on the failure (as difficult as that might be from one smartphone video recording the noise), and potential costs for rectification, as well as important questions such as potential warranty offered on a rebuilt engine.
At this point, I have to say, I did not fully appreciate how difficult a question I was asking ‘how much is this going to cost me, and when can you sort it out’; considering no one had done any proper disassembly and inspection.
In the end having had a few discussions with Redish, they quoted me to drop the sump and pull the crank caps, and to video the findings. I arranged for the car to be transported to them to commence investigation on Weds 21st July.

Collection of the car (from my house):


Delivery at Redish:



Now this is where it gets interesting - See Post #2 below!

 

[Ed Doe]

It is worth restating at this point that I had assumed the very worst – bottom end rebuild, likely with a new crank (£2.2k cost price for just the crank for reference) if it had been scored by the bearing spinning, maybe damaged connecting rods so likely a new matching set required, possible scored Oil pump requiring replacement to ensure correct oil pressure, likely swarf through the engine necessitating strip and clean before reassembly with any additional parts being replaced if they had become damaged from ingress of swarf too.

Redish duly called Wednesday afternoon to say their inspection video was uploading (link below), but they were happy to confirm that the bottom end bearings were completely still intact and within bmw tolerance upon inspection, none of them were spun, and therefore there was NO damage to the crank, conrods or oil pump!

https://youtu.be/vk6MoPHzm6M

They therefore requested authorisation to conduct an investigation in the top end, and forwarded the following video;

https://youtu.be/RtEx8R6CSoY

After this they checked I was in agreement that the engine could be reassembled with new bearings and bolts (I Opted for ACL Bearings & ARP Bolts) to then start the car so they could listen to the noise. After listening to the noise, they advised it sounded likely that it was a top-end clatter, and that really the next step was to undertake a top-end inspection, including checking valve clearances and follower condition. On Thursday morning they completed this, sent me the subsequent top-end inspection video, and called me to discuss the next steps.

https://youtu.be/l08X6JquUBo

It appears that after 72,000miles there was evidence of scoring to the cam lobes on Cylinder 6, and flattening of the corresponding rocker arm. Whilst this did not necessarily appear to be severe, it was clear that the rocker arm and cam surface was worn through the hardened surface layer, and that it would only continue to wear the softer metal underneath at a faster rate if left unchecked.

Redish were clear that it was a little odd however that what had been discovered was causing such a loud clattering, and suggested that it may be possible to confirm this was the cause by overshimming the valves corresponding to the flattened lifter and see if the noise disappeared….

Subsequent video with larger shim on the affected Cam/Rocker Arm in Cyl 6 below;

https://youtu.be/tPKoBxz4L9U

Noise still there. Bugger.

After reporting the findings to me, I took a couple of days to seriously consider what to do from here, including assessing the possibility of getting hold of a 2nd hand engine to just bung in and get the car going, and therefore be able to take my time on the investigation. Or give up and sell the car, which I really didn’t want to do!

(Another Side Note: I would also like to point out that up to this point, I had been in fairly regular contact with Mr Vanos, who had also been really helpful & supportive. Fair play to him, he took one listen to the video and called it as flattened followers!)

Anyway, after two days, I got another video and call from Redish. They had been starting the car morning and evening to move it in and out of the workshop for security, and that morning they had started it as normal to move it, and there was no noise……….! So they left it running for 10 minutes, and still no noise…..!

https://youtu.be/mMxzMXs0e0k

Slightly stumped they called me, to explain the findings, with no real theory as to why it had stopped making the noise.

Now at this point, both Redish & I were quite hesitant to go spending loads of my money on parts without having a fully diagnosed and confirmed issue. However, I rationalised the way forwards as follows;

The noise was a rotational clatter, in time with top end not the bottom end, and irrespective of engine load, pointing away from Little-end bearings (the only other thing we could think of at the time, but rare to the point of non-existence on a stock S54, and appreciably impossible to inspect without a proper and complete engine tear-down). It couldn’t be big ends as these were fine upon inspection, and had been replaced with new anyway.
Therefore, there was a high probability the issue was a top end problem, and as some evidence of damage to the cams and followers had been discovered, these would need to be replaced irrespective.
By proceeding with the replacement of the followers, the Vanos & head would have to be removed from the car in any case, at which point it would be possible to conduct a more thorough inspection of the Vanos, valves, springs, piston crowns, bores etc – so it made sense to book this work in and hope that any issues discovered would confirm the current working theory as to what had caused the clatter! It’s been quite an anxious summer for me in retrospect!!!

Anyway, on this basis I pulled in a few favours and managed to get a brand new set of OE Cams from BMW (Big thanks to Will @ TWG for sourcing these for me), as well as a set of 24 Schrick DLC Followers (Thanks to Martin @ MS Motorsport for supplying these). For those interested, the Schrick followers are identical to the BMW ones, but have a much thicker hardened finish to them, so supposedly last a lot longer than the BMW OE parts. They are also conveniently a little cheaper than the BMW ones too!

(Side note: At this point, I was INCREDIBLY tempted to get a set of Schrick cams – which were actually cheaper through MS Motorsport than the OE BMW ones, but in the end caution prevailed and I decided that the money I’d have to then spend on mapping he car afterwards would ultimately make it more expensive, and that I’d rather spend any leftover cash on trackdays than making the car more powerful. Cams can maybe follow some other time, but in retrospect I’m so glad I didn’t commit to them in the end….!)

Being that I had so far never met the team at Redish, and also categorically did not trust any couriers with my delicate Cams & Followers, I took a trip down to Bristol on 14th August to drop the parts of in person and have a proper catch up with James Redish and team. They really are a thoroughly decent bunch – both James R & James P spend a good deal of time with me discussing everything, and we unpackaged and inspected the new parts together so they and I were happy. I left feeling really happy knowing the car was in their hands.

One of the things Redish said they would try was to remove the oversized valve shim in the Valve with the flattened follower, and replace with the same size shim that was in the car when it arrived with them, to see if the noise returned. They subsequently called me to confirm it was still not making the noise after this, so a bit of a head scratcher…. Irrespective we had agreed on a route forward to remove the head and replace the cams and followers, and for Redish to conduct a further investigation at this point.

 

[Ed Doe]

I got a further update from Redish on 27th August with pics of the head removed, and confirmation that there were no obvious defects found in the bores, piston crowns, or the head, and that this would be sent away for a light refacing, and a chemical clean. They also commented as a point of note on the good quality of Mr Vanos’ work, that all bolts correctly paint-market to indicate they had been torqued up properly etc. I didn’t expect any less, but it was good to have another item given the ‘all clear’ on the list of ‘things that could have gone wrong with expensive consequences’!!

Head off:

Head partially Disassembled:

Cams/Followers/Head components removed:

Bottom End taped up:

Various Pictures of the head during disassembly:



More Updates on 7th September with pictures of the head back from cleaning/refacing, and pictures (at my request) showing the condition of the bores, along with confirmation that there were no obvious issues/problems discovered so far.

Head back from Chemical Clean/Resurfacing:




See Post #4 below for Bore Pics....!

 

[Ed Doe]

Pics of the Piston Crowns, and bores:








Pic of the Timing Chain - this was a brand new OE Chain replaced at the same time as the Vanos was done by Mr Vanos - separate note, but amazing how much these stretch through use, and how knackered the chain tensioner gets.... highly recommend getting both these items checked out, my tensioner had nearly worn through to the webbing and would have eventually snapped....!




Anyway, at this point I had been dwelling a little on potential areas for more hidden issues, which may end up presenting themselves after rebuild, so I asked if the Valve springs could be removed and checked, to be certain none had snapped (this is not uncommon on higher mileage, or harder used cars). Obviously, this is impossible to inspect properly without being removed, so for total peace of mind, I authorised this to be done along with replacement Valve stem seals. Video below from Redish responding to my queries – I was actually working offshore for a chunk of September, so I was communicating my queries through whatsapp, and Redish were giving me responses by Youtube which was really brilliant as it gave me so much detail to make properly informed decisions.

Video Update with suggestions for Valve Spring inspection;

https://youtu.be/G4f-dZQJQ9o

Redish were subsequently able to speak to their engine machine shop who had the Valve spring removal tools, and were able to do the removal/inspection of the springs, and reinstallation with new Stem seals for a more competitive price, so I authorised this to go ahead.

I then received another video update from Redish, and this is where it gets interesting. Upon removal of the springs, their Engine Shop discovered two bent inlet valves, which corresponded to the scored camshaft lobes and flattened followers on the same Cylinder (Cly. 6). In addition, there was evidence of quite a bit of pitting on the remaining valves, and so the bent valves were replaced with two new OE BMW Valves, and all the others removed, cleaned, and relapped into the head. Understandably this was more expensive than originally discussed, but there was no way I was not going to get this done! So now the head really has had a complete disassembly and refresh!

https://youtu.be/gYVAM83rn0c

In many ways, discovering the bent valves was a relief – this categorically would be what had been causing the tapping noise – although how on earth they had bent in the first place is beyond me. The working theory is that when the engine was rebuilt by BMW after the bottom end let go at 59k, the BMW Techs had potentially installed the cams with the new bottom end incorrectly timed, and had therefore bent the valves on Cyl 6 without the engine rotating. They had then realised, removed the cams, timed it up correctly and completed the rebuild…. There is no way of proving this, but that’s the last time the head would have been off and the cams out, and based on the subsequent findings below, it starts to build a bit of a picture….

So, there I was thinking “Brilliant, we’re on the home straight – what a relief at finding the cause of the clattering, I can now start to breathe again, and begin to draw a line under how much this will end up costing….

And then I got another video from Redish…. Apparently, the BMW Techs rebuilding the engine had also been a bit ‘keen’ with their torque-ing of the Cam caps, and had stripped the threads in the head on one cap bolt…. Massive Facepalm. Sadly this had been caught only at the point at which the cam cams would be final torqued, so potentially the only option would be to remove them again, remove the head again and send it away to the machine shop for the thread to be drilled and helicoiled. More hours of labour to disassemble all that had been assembled, more head studs, another head gasket… This was such a blow.

https://youtu.be/gXP9MUhGB60

Fortunately, Redish were able to borrow the Helicoil Tool, and carefully helicoil the thread with the head in situ, which was a massive relief, and appeared to be the last of the ‘unforeseen issues’!

https://youtu.be/OicTsmcTgM0

The re-assembly went well, Redish kept me well updated with the progress, and advised subsequently that the initial start, and two 30-minute or so road-tests were completed without issue, and the car was ready to collect on 3rd September.

Redish also managed to sort out a couple of other bits and bobs whilst the car was in – an exhaust bolt was missing, the Negative Terminal to the battery had been broken, and there were a few other bits and bobs which they just got on and fixed/replaced. They also filled the car up with Super Unleaded, and brought in their detailer to detail the car too.



Collection went perfectly; I’m still running the car in now – It’s been a manic few weeks with rushing about sorting my wife’s new car out, heading to Scotland for a socially-distanced wedding and sorting out a new bathroom, and preparing for our first baby due in Jan 2021, but maan the engine sounds the best it ever has, and I’m just desperate to drive it every opportunity I can get, even though I’m being very gentle with it whilst it all runs in!



As mentioned, with a baby on the way, the likelihood is I’ll get as much mileage as I can done before they start salting the roads down here, then will get an oil service done, and pop it away for winter. Going forwards it’s likely to be used pretty sparingly for a little while, but now it has basically a new engine, even more so it’s here to stay if I can help it!


Anyway, I hope this overly long and probably rambly thread is of interest.

Bit of a summary based on my opinion and experience here:

1. Can’t recommend Redish enough – brilliant service throughout
2. In my opinion, the issue of worn cams and followers is something that we will increasingly see as mileage increases on the S54 in the Z4. This is something that is increasingly seen on S54 M3s, where generally the M3s are more regularly used so general mileage is higher than the comparable Z4M for the same age of car. It is my view that, irrespective of whether the car has been tracked or now, owners and prospective owners should be aware of this issue, as it does occur, and if caught early can be more cheaply rectified.
3. In my opinion, S54 Owners or prospective owners should also not assume that just because your rod bearings were done by the previous owner, maybe not not many miles prior, that they’ll be perfectly serviceable for years to come. Fortunately I did not have to deal with a bottom end failure bill, but having to face the possibility of this, and educate myself on the costs, it's quite a terrifying prospect (£2.2k for a crank, ~£1800 for rods then big end bearings, main bearings, bolts, replacement oil pump if the lobes are scored from ingress of metal, potential costs for replacing cams and followers if the swarf gets between the faces of the cams and followers and scores them al on top... it goes on!). On this basis, the ~£1kish or so it costs to have the bearings replaced preventatively looks not only like jolly good value, but something that I personally would factor into the purchase of an S54 engined vehicle if I was a prospective buyer again.

the above is of course just my opinion and in no way intended to scare-monger. We all look at the risks and make our choices, but the more information available to inform those choices, in my opinion the better!


Finally, special mention to my wife for putting up with the car which in her own words ‘has had more of a sodding holiday than we have this year’!!!

Now I’m off to go drive the damn thing! :lol: (And yes I'm aware I need to get new BMW Roundels for the front alloys - the old ones melted on track and fell off!


If you've made it to the end of this, well done, and hopefully it was interesting and worth reading.

 

[mr wilks]

So after 3 track sessions on a car that hadn't previously been tracked (in your ownership) the heat through the wheels was sufficient to melt the wheel centres yet you aren't sure what could have caused a bent valve :?
How about excessive heat cycle / cooling along with poor oil circulation?


If you stick your fingers through the bars you have to expect to get bitten & scaremongering all S54 owners into thinking this could easily happen to their cars is just wrong.
Do you intend tracking it again ?

 

[AndyBeech]

Great post Ed, interesting read and good to see James is still doing excellent work down at Redish, hate to think what the final bill was for all that though Sounds like you've just been a bit unlucky to be honest as well as the previous rebuild not being up to standard going from what James said which no doubt was part of the problem. Least it's all sorted now though, take it they still didn't figure out why the noise went away for no particular reason at one point?

Plenty of people track standard S54 engine car's with no major issues apart from more regular maintenance and oil changes so not sure there's any scaremongering going on, just things to be aware of. From watching what James said it sounds a poor previous rebuild caused the issues here rather than excessive heat cycling etc. Sure Ed can shed more light on that though as he would have had more extensive conversations with James at the time no doubt. Not sure what the wheel caps melting has anything to do with the engine, AP brakes are going to produce a lot of heat on track but nothing out the ordinary (wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol: )

 

[BMWZ4MC]

That’s quite a saga! Having heard the précis, it was good to fill in the details.
The frequency of reports of follower wear with or without consequent flattening of the associated cam(s) is slowly increasing as our cars get older. Certainly, it’s something that we should consider if the top end sounds unusually tappety. Especially since catching it early might avoid the need to replace the camshaft as well as the followers. I’m hoping the Schrick followers will prove more durable than OEM, but time will tell.
As for the centre caps, I removed mine from two sets of track wheels after a friend complained about me throwing shrapnel at his car on a track day! Two of mine are somewhere at Thruxton and another couple are at Eastern Creek. Your wheels without centre caps actually look better than those with, they’re more in keeping with the menacing appearance of your Zed.
Thanks for the great write up and also for the recent advice. I’ve ordered the item we discussed so I’ll let you know how I get on once it lands in Aus.

 

[Ed Doe]

So after 3 track sessions on a car that hadn't previously been tracked (in your ownership) the heat through the wheels was sufficient to melt the wheel centres yet you aren't sure what could have caused a bent valve :?
How about excessive heat cycle / cooling along with poor oil circulation?


If you stick your fingers through the bars you have to expect to get bitten & scaremongering all S54 owners into thinking this could easily happen to their cars is just wrong.
Do you intend tracking it again ?

Wow.

Could I politely suggest you re-read my thread again.

For clarity, at no point have I:
1. Moaned the fact I wasn't expecting big bills at some point due to driving the car hard on track.
2. Scaremongered other owners about the potential issues with S54s.

I went in eyes open and fully aware that of course something could go wrong and cost me a lot of money by doing a trackday. This is absolutely not the point of this thread - in fact if it was the point, I'd have posted something up months ago when the car was undiagnosed and clearly fucked, moaning about it. Instead I have waited until the conclusion of the rebuild when the issue was sourced and fixed. I have detailed my experience with rectifying what transpired to be a fairly major issue having taken my car on a track day. I have offered what I believe to be a fairly comprehensive review of Redish Motorsport who in my opinion have done fantastic work on my car throughout. I have highlighted that it is (in my opinion - yes we're all allowed one!) pragmatic when purchasing an S54 engine'd car to be wary of rod bearing issues - which is common sense. I have (at least hoped to have) drawn attention to the fact that cam & follower wear is actually a more common issue than perhaps people think on this forum, although it is more known on the E46 M3 forums.

I'm not trying to scare anyone - christ I thought this might be quite an interesting thread covering what happened to my car that's all. IF you want this forum to be full of knowledge and insight for future owners, drawn from people's experiences owning running and using their cars, then why blast me for posting my experiences?

 

[enuff_zed]

I don't have the luxury of an S54 but I read every word of this report and found it very interesting, purely from an engineering point of view.
Thank you for the time it took you to write it all. (If you could just type a bit quicker as I've worn out the 'refresh' function )

If you hadn't mentioned the missing centre caps I doubt they would have been noticed. But you did, and it must be encouraging for you to hear that this is actually a known issue, not another problem with either your car or your right foot.

 

[Ed Doe]

Great post Ed, interesting read and good to see James is still doing excellent work down at Redish, hate to think what the final bill was for all that though Sounds like you've just been a bit unlucky to be honest as well as the previous rebuild not being up to standard going from what James said which no doubt was part of the problem. Least it's all sorted now though, take it they still didn't figure out why the noise went away for no particular reason at one point?

Plenty of people track standard S54 engine car's with no major issues apart from more regular maintenance and oil changes so not sure there's any scaremongering going on, just things to be aware of. From watching what James said it sounds a poor previous rebuild caused the issues here rather than excessive heat cycling etc. Sure Ed can shed more light on that though as he would have had more extensive conversations with James at the time no doubt. Not sure what the wheel caps melting has anything to do with the engine, AP brakes are going to produce a lot of heat on track but nothing out the ordinary (wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol: )

Thanks Andy, yeah really great experience with Redish, I'd recommend them to anyone! I agree I think I think I was just particularly unlucky - it was not 100% proven but the running theory is that slightly bent valves on cyl.6 were perhaps sticking in the guides ever so slightly before clattering back into the followers - there were no witness marks on the piston crowns to suggest any valve to piston contact. This may have excerbated the cam follower flattening and corresponding wear on the cam lobe. In addition, Mr Vanos when he did my vanos about 800miles prior to the trackday commented that the cams and followers were 'well worn'. In fact when I spoke to him on the phone for advice after the trackday and the issue had presented, he said he had done about 20 M3's this year alone with flattened followers, and that it was really quite common at this stage!

I'm basically hoping now it's been done I'll have no big worries for some time to come - the major bits have been addressed, and as you say generally these engines do prove to relatively reliable on track! I guess I just have to try and find the time around the expanding family to get it out now :lol:

That’s quite a saga! Having heard the précis, it was good to fill in the details.
The frequency of reports of follower wear with or without consequent flattening of the associated cam(s) is slowly increasing as our cars get older. Certainly, it’s something that we should consider if the top end sounds unusually tappety. Especially since catching it early might avoid the need to replace the camshaft as well as the followers. I’m hoping the Schrick followers will prove more durable than OEM, but time will tell.
As for the centre caps, I removed mine from two sets of track wheels after a friend complained about me throwing shrapnel at his car on a track day! Two of mine are somewhere at Thruxton and another couple are at Eastern Creek. Your wheels without centre caps actually look better than those with, they’re more in keeping with the menacing appearance of your Zed.
Thanks for the great write up and also for the recent advice. I’ve ordered the item we discussed so I’ll let you know how I get on once it lands in Aus.

Hi Richard,

I'm sorry I have been meaning to reply to your last whatsapp, this week has been manic! I've got my fingers crossed the Schrick ones will prove more durable - if you do get tot he point where you're going to inspect/replace yours do let me know what condition you find them in - it'd be useful information for us all at this point!

:lol: I'm glad I'm not the only one who's lost centre-caps - to be honest I figured it's pretty normal - plus it looks like the ones I lost may have been slightly cheaper plastic from the non-OE types they sell on ebay. Heyho, not fussed, I'll definitely be taking them off ahead of next trackday whenever thay may be!

Glad you enjoyed the write up - took a bit of time to get it all down, but I felt it might have been interesting to the few of us who track these cars at least! Very excited to see the pics when your 'item' arrives - keep us informed, I just may look into it myself if I can distract the wife from the baby spending for a few minutes :lol:

 

[mr wilks]

Great post Ed, interesting read and good to see James is still doing excellent work down at Redish, hate to think what the final bill was for all that though Sounds like you've just been a bit unlucky to be honest as well as the previous rebuild not being up to standard going from what James said which no doubt was part of the problem. Least it's all sorted now though, take it they still didn't figure out why the noise went away for no particular reason at one point?

Plenty of people track standard S54 engine car's with no major issues apart from more regular maintenance and oil changes so not sure there's any scaremongering going on, just things to be aware of. From watching what James said it sounds a poor previous rebuild caused the issues here rather than excessive heat cycling etc. Sure Ed can shed more light on that though as he would have had more extensive conversations with James at the time no doubt. Not sure what the wheel caps melting has anything to do with the engine, AP brakes are going to produce a lot of heat on track but nothing out the ordinary (wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol: )

The scaremongering being the caveats added at the end of post to remind all S54 owners that worn cams & followers is a very real issue but is it?? Or is it more prominent in cars pushed to the max of heat - cool - heat - cool in relative short bursts.
Pure opinion which I'm entitled to have & voice , you aren't of the opinion that engine went from good to bad at that moment between sessions purely by chance or bad luck are you? & suggesting the previous rebuild was iffy is also clutching at straws too , it's managed 10k with no issues :wink:
There is obviously a divided camp of owners Re tracking cars or not but fro. My own perspective I wouldn't knowingly touch any car that had track history with a barge pole let only a broom.

 

[Ed Doe]

I don't have the luxury of an S54 but I read every word of this report and found it very interesting, purely from an engineering point of view.
Thank you for the time it took you to write it all. (If you could just type a bit quicker as I've worn out the 'refresh' function )

If you hadn't mentioned the missing centre caps I doubt they would have been noticed. But you did, and it must be encouraging for you to hear that this is actually a known issue, not another problem with either your car or your right foot.

Thank you - pleased you enjoyed it - although it's been a terrifyingly expensive journey, it has been quite fascinating for me too from an engineering perspective! when I finished typing, I thought 'that's not far off half as long as my old dissertation was from university :lol

I'm just hoping now the car is all good to go for plenty of miles now - I have complete peace of mind knowing it's all been properly looked over by Redish, and the top end which was original to the car has basically been refreshed with mostly new bits, so I should be able to just enjoy it now

 

[enuff_zed]

suggesting the previous rebuild was iffy is also clutching at straws too

I'd like to see the kind of track abuse that stripped a thread on a cap bolt......... :?

 

[enuff_zed]

it's been a terrifyingly expensive journey, it has been quite fascinating for me too from an engineering perspective!

Aaaargh! You were doing so well, then you went and called it 'a journey'!
That's it! I'm off!

 

[mr wilks]

& btw Ed., I'm not blasting you for the thread or insinuating you are bleating at the expense incurred , I actually found it a interesting read but to point out that its a potential concern for all owners of S54 is not wholly accurate.
I do however think it's a concern if you intend tracking which not all owners do.
As for bigging up Redish I have 2 thoughts
1) a big time reputed indy that dropped the bottom out when the fault was actually a bent valve? Surely they've come across the fault before if as you say its prevelent in S54
2) wasn't it Beedub who had a big issue with them after claiming to have done valve check when they hadn't?

 

[AndyBeech]

Great post Ed, interesting read and good to see James is still doing excellent work down at Redish, hate to think what the final bill was for all that though Sounds like you've just been a bit unlucky to be honest as well as the previous rebuild not being up to standard going from what James said which no doubt was part of the problem. Least it's all sorted now though, take it they still didn't figure out why the noise went away for no particular reason at one point?

Plenty of people track standard S54 engine car's with no major issues apart from more regular maintenance and oil changes so not sure there's any scaremongering going on, just things to be aware of. From watching what James said it sounds a poor previous rebuild caused the issues here rather than excessive heat cycling etc. Sure Ed can shed more light on that though as he would have had more extensive conversations with James at the time no doubt. Not sure what the wheel caps melting has anything to do with the engine, AP brakes are going to produce a lot of heat on track but nothing out the ordinary (wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol: )

The scaremongering being the caveats added at the end of post to remind all S54 owners that worn cams & followers is a very real issue but is it?? Or is it more prominent in cars pushed to the max of heat - cool - heat - cool in relative short bursts.
Pure opinion which I'm entitled to have & voice , you aren't of the opinion that engine went from good to bad at that moment between sessions purely by chance or bad luck are you? & suggesting the previous rebuild was iffy is also clutching at straws too , it's managed 10k with no issues :wink:
There is obviously a divided camp of owners Re tracking cars or not but fro. My own perspective I wouldn't knowingly touch any car that had track history with a barge pole let only a broom.

It's an issue the same as the rod bearings / head gasket / VANOS are issues. Some people will experience them, some never will. Some will suffer these regardless of track work or not. It's just things to be aware of. Of course pushing the engine round a track is more likely to expose weak points already there, don't think that would be a surprise to anyone.

I don't think the engine went from good to bad by chance no, clearly there were issues already there that were exposed by being on track. I don't think you've read the thread properly as James says many times that he believes whoever did the previous rebuild has been heavy handed and maybe not done a great job as demonstrated by the damaged bolt threads so I don't see how that's 'clutching at straws'.

I don't think this thread is anything to do with whether tracking a car is bad or not, it's just Ed sharing his experience and pointing out again some already known potential weak points. The only thing obvious is that track work exposes weak points, doesn't mean it wouldn't have failed had it not been near a track at some point down the line with 'spirited driving'.

 

[TomK]

Happy to hear you got to the end of it, Ed, seems all rather unfortunate Thanks for the informative post

wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol:

Yep! If they're not oe they'll be off before you know it.
I think "melting them" is more a figure of speech, taken by some though as yet more signs of incredible abuse to your car

2) wasn't it Beedub who had a big issue with them after claiming to have done valve check when they hadn't?

Nope, different shop.

 

[Ed Doe]

Thanks Andy - hit the nail on the head.

The scaremongering being the caveats added at the end of post to remind all S54 owners that worn cams & followers is a very real issue but is it?? Or is it more prominent in cars pushed to the max of heat - cool - heat - cool in relative short bursts.
Pure opinion which I'm entitled to have & voice , you aren't of the opinion that engine went from good to bad at that moment between sessions purely by chance or bad luck are you? & suggesting the previous rebuild was iffy is also clutching at straws too , it's managed 10k with no issues :wink:
There is obviously a divided camp of owners Re tracking cars or not but fro. My own perspective I wouldn't knowingly touch any car that had track history with a barge pole let only a broom.

I'm going to completely ignore your tone and digs in your first response.
That aside, you are arguing the issues aren't very real because you haven't suffered with them, and I am on the other side of the scale with a hard-used example, but I must stress I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions. The difference however is that this issue HAS happened to me.

Interestingly, Mr Vanos (who I spoke to at length throughout the early phase of working out what the hell do to) also told me he'd already done about 20 follower/cam refreshes on S54 M3s this year, from cars with the same top-end noise as mine was making. Redish also separately said that they are seeing an increasing number of follower/cam wear in the S54. I'm afraid it is happening - there's a fair bit more of it on the M3 forums because quite honestly the z4 tends to be more of a sunny day occasional car so mileage generally is less on Z4s compared to M3s of comparative ages.

Out of interest, in relation to my apparent naivety in putting the noise down to issues with the rebuild rather than a mere 40 miles on track, Redish did a timing check upon receipt of the vehicle and confirmed it was perfectly timed. Therefore it would not be possible for only two valves to bend on an interference engine - it either bends them all or none. This does indicate issues with the previous rebuild, and yes if the bend was slight and the valve still sealed it could have been an unseen issue that was carried for many miles until it got hot enough for things to start to expand and therefore affect operation.

In the interests of drawing a line under your (in my opinion misguided) remarks, I will modify the wording in my original write-up to clarify that in my opinion it would always be a worthwhile investment to budget for rod bearings, and to investigate the condition of the cam lobes and followers, as certainly if I were a prospective buyer once again, I would have wanted to at least know of this so I could make an informed opinion on whether to investigate any car before purchase. I hope this will make you feel a little better.

& btw Ed., I'm not blasting you for the thread or insinuating you are bleating at the expense incurred , I actually found it a interesting read but to point out that its a potential concern for all owners of S54 is not wholly accurate.
I do however think it's a concern if you intend tracking which not all owners do.
As for bigging up Redish I have 2 thoughts
1) a big time reputed indy that dropped the bottom out when the fault was actually a bent valve? Surely they've come across the fault before if as you say its prevelent in S54
2) wasn't it Beedub who had a big issue with them after claiming to have done valve check when they hadn't?

You may not have wanted to blast me for the thread, but I'm afraid the tone and sarcasm of your posts has largely achieved just that. I'm not a sensitive soul by any stretch but I'm equally not a fan of being accused of stirring it up, and I strongly believe I have done nothing more than record my experiences and offered a word of advice based on that.

In relation to your comments on Redish, my responses as follows;

1. I insisted that Redish drop the sump and check the rod bearings before allowing them to start the car to listen to the engine, because I thought it might be bottom end failure, and I didn't want to do more damage to the crank. That was 100% my call, and I insisted on this approach because I was holding onto the hope the crank journals wouldn't be scored, as the as the clatter had only started at ~1500 rpm and I'd only had the car running for a short period of time. I had hoped that any scoring that had happened would also have been minimal and could have therefore been sorted with a slight polish rather than a new crank, at a new crank costs approx. £2.2k. As you can appreciate, with an undiagnosed issue of this magnitude I was quite cautious, an approach which Redish fully supported!

2. I wasn't aware of Beedub's issues, the above posts I have made are purely a summary of my own experience with Redish. I don't think there are many companies who would do youtube videos to explain progress and critical areas for discussion/decision making - as far as I'm concerned they have gone above and beyond in performing my diagnosis and rebuild. Not sure what else to say really?!

Happy to discuss this further, but please could we leave it out of this thread going forward - I think I've adequately addressed your issue, and I don't think further back-and-forth is adding anything meaningful to the discussion on the thread.

Thanks!

 

[Ed Doe]

Happy to hear you got to the end of it, Ed, seems all rather unfortunate Thanks for the informative post

wonder if Tom has done the same at some point :lol:

Yep! If they're not oe they'll be off before you know it.
I think "melting them" is more a figure of speech, taken by some though as yet more signs of incredible abuse to your car

Cheers Tom, and thanks for your help and advice on the Cam & mapping side of things. I contacted the mappers you recommended, but in the end decided that I'd be better off getting it fixed and getting some track time than making it quicker. Maybe in the future though - having watched your 911 Gt3 chasing video, the sound yours makes is something else, and it's bloody quick too! Does make me want to do it at some point!

:lol: Do you know for sure that the OE ones don't melt? If they don't I'll grab a set of them!

For clarity, this is what I meant when I said melted - they just deformed slightly so they no longer clipped in - then they just fell out:




Sadly this may confirm that I did not in fact drive the car that hard :lol:

 

[AndyBeech]

Just to add on Redish, I'm pretty well qualified to have an opinion on him / them as I've known and used James since he started out on his own over 10 years ago in a little garage in Bristol doing repairs. He is a very honest and open guy and very methodical and I know for a fact if he makes a mistake or does something that the customer isn't happy with, he will hold his hands up and happily have a discussion about it and come to a resolution. He certainly didn't get to where he is now by being dishonest or carrying out sloppy work.
Only reason I don't use them so much anymore is that it's a bit difficult and far away from me to get to but that's all.

He's also the only place I know that sends out a Christmas card to all his customers every year! :lol: