The Saga of Trigger's S54....
- Thread starter Ed Doe
- Start date
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delay in responding to some of the replies on here
Glad it’s continued to be an interesting read for others if nothing else!
Thanks for your insight – a few responses though;
1. I asked Redish about the pistons – they advised there was no evidence of valve to piston contact or witness marks - certainly to my admittedly untrained eye I can't see any evidence of witness marks. In addition, the engine had run for ~45secs or so including a couple of blips to 2.5k before it was trailered to Redish, and then they started and ran it a few times (after the bottom end investigation) with the clatter present – there would be many hundreds of witness marks from valve to piston contact after that. In my head I can understand how a head with completely vertical valves could to some extent ‘straighten’ any bent valves, but not in one such as the S54 where the valves are angled. I’d be interested to understand how they could be straightened of course – I just can’t reconcile that in my head – especially without pockmarking the piston crown! The other thing to note is the fact that the engine still ran smoothly, no noticeable ‘miss’ with the clattering sound from a lack of compression etc. Sounds like you have plenty of experience in rebuilding engines, so I'd welcome your thoughts
This is the sort of damage I would have expected from a bent valve though: http://www.eatsleeptinker.com/2014/03/06/engine-carnage-revealed/
2. The Cam Cap with the stripped thread was only one of the two retaining threads on Cylinder 1 Exhaust Cam, whereas the Bent Valves were on Cylinder 6 Inlet Cam! I’ve also seen what happens when you get valve to piston contact – a friend of mine managed to snap his cam a while ago – it aint pretty! But I’m certain the damaged thread and bent valves are unconnected insofar as they did not occur from valve to piston contact on track.
3. The other thing to note is that at no point was this noise present whilst actually on track, or indeed coming off the track after cooldown lap and subsequently manoeuvring in the pits. It was only after I switched the engine back on, having been switched off waiting in the queue for 20mins that it started to make the clatter. Up until that point it had been running absolutely spot on!
As you say – so much of this is hypothesis at this point – I’ll never truly know what happened, but I am certainly happy it’s fixed up and ready for more fun and hopefully a few more trackdays now!
Could you point out the witness marks to me – call me thick but I can’t make any out, certainly none indicative of a proper ‘buzzed’ shift on track! I can say pretty confidently that I didn’t buzz it on track, so again rather confusing!
In relation to the wear – I asked Mr Vanos to do my Vanos and Timing chain at a friend’s unit, so whilst he commented that my top end was certainly well worn, I am quite comfortable that he had no burden of responsibility in relation to the top end of my engine – he certainly didn’t ‘let it leave his shop’ - he wasn't there to do any work on it aside from doing valve clearances, and didn't have any parts or tools to undertake any work on the Cams or Followers. As per the write-up, after the trackday, I did get input from Mr. Vanos, who’s immediate response was that he’d be prepared to bet his car that it was a flattened follower making the noise. However for various reasons (partly related to the cost of getting the car to him, lead-time for him to start the work, and the fact that I foolishly still believed somehow that it was bottom end related) I ended up getting taking the car to Redish who had the capacity to undertake some initial diagnosis more swiftly. In retrospect, as Mr Vanos had quoted to do the follower and cam replacement without removing the head, therefore I’m glad that I went with Redish who took the head off. If they had not, I would never have discovered the bent valves, so potentially could have ended up thousands of pounds into it, with the clatter still present.
Very exciting, I bet you're busier now than you've ever been!!
Well that settles it - I'll grab a couple of decent quality ebay ones - and will try and remember to remove them before going on track next! :lol:
Very exciting about the 'item' - look forward to updates via whatsapp - and definitely get a thread up of the install! I'm sure the process will be broadly similar to my experience, so if you need any help as you go drop me a message
Sorry for the delay in responding to some of the replies on here
Glad it’s continued to be an interesting read for others if nothing else!
Z4M-2006 said:
Thanks for your insight – a few responses though;
1. I asked Redish about the pistons – they advised there was no evidence of valve to piston contact or witness marks - certainly to my admittedly untrained eye I can't see any evidence of witness marks. In addition, the engine had run for ~45secs or so including a couple of blips to 2.5k before it was trailered to Redish, and then they started and ran it a few times (after the bottom end investigation) with the clatter present – there would be many hundreds of witness marks from valve to piston contact after that. In my head I can understand how a head with completely vertical valves could to some extent ‘straighten’ any bent valves, but not in one such as the S54 where the valves are angled. I’d be interested to understand how they could be straightened of course – I just can’t reconcile that in my head – especially without pockmarking the piston crown! The other thing to note is the fact that the engine still ran smoothly, no noticeable ‘miss’ with the clattering sound from a lack of compression etc. Sounds like you have plenty of experience in rebuilding engines, so I'd welcome your thoughts
This is the sort of damage I would have expected from a bent valve though: http://www.eatsleeptinker.com/2014/03/06/engine-carnage-revealed/2. The Cam Cap with the stripped thread was only one of the two retaining threads on Cylinder 1 Exhaust Cam, whereas the Bent Valves were on Cylinder 6 Inlet Cam! I’ve also seen what happens when you get valve to piston contact – a friend of mine managed to snap his cam a while ago – it aint pretty! But I’m certain the damaged thread and bent valves are unconnected insofar as they did not occur from valve to piston contact on track.
3. The other thing to note is that at no point was this noise present whilst actually on track, or indeed coming off the track after cooldown lap and subsequently manoeuvring in the pits. It was only after I switched the engine back on, having been switched off waiting in the queue for 20mins that it started to make the clatter. Up until that point it had been running absolutely spot on!
As you say – so much of this is hypothesis at this point – I’ll never truly know what happened, but I am certainly happy it’s fixed up and ready for more fun and hopefully a few more trackdays now!
abar121 said:
Could you point out the witness marks to me – call me thick but I can’t make any out, certainly none indicative of a proper ‘buzzed’ shift on track! I can say pretty confidently that I didn’t buzz it on track, so again rather confusing!
In relation to the wear – I asked Mr Vanos to do my Vanos and Timing chain at a friend’s unit, so whilst he commented that my top end was certainly well worn, I am quite comfortable that he had no burden of responsibility in relation to the top end of my engine – he certainly didn’t ‘let it leave his shop’ - he wasn't there to do any work on it aside from doing valve clearances, and didn't have any parts or tools to undertake any work on the Cams or Followers. As per the write-up, after the trackday, I did get input from Mr. Vanos, who’s immediate response was that he’d be prepared to bet his car that it was a flattened follower making the noise. However for various reasons (partly related to the cost of getting the car to him, lead-time for him to start the work, and the fact that I foolishly still believed somehow that it was bottom end related) I ended up getting taking the car to Redish who had the capacity to undertake some initial diagnosis more swiftly. In retrospect, as Mr Vanos had quoted to do the follower and cam replacement without removing the head, therefore I’m glad that I went with Redish who took the head off. If they had not, I would never have discovered the bent valves, so potentially could have ended up thousands of pounds into it, with the clatter still present.
BMWZ4MC said:
Very exciting, I bet you're busier now than you've ever been!!
Well that settles it - I'll grab a couple of decent quality ebay ones - and will try and remember to remove them before going on track next! :lol:
Very exciting about the 'item' - look forward to updates via whatsapp - and definitely get a thread up of the install! I'm sure the process will be broadly similar to my experience, so if you need any help as you go drop me a message
Z4M-2006 said:So at this point...
We have all the answers of what didnt happen....
Apart from the answer to the original problem
:lol: I can't tell if that's sarcasm, but I was only trying to fill in the information I do know, and I was hoping to get your insight following that!
Nevermind, either way you're right, it's all theory and supposition, I'll never really know! :roll:
Attleborough, Norfolk
Ed Doe said:Z4M-2006 said:So at this point...
We have all the answers of what didnt happen....
Apart from the answer to the original problem
:lol: I can't tell if that's sarcasm, but I was only trying to fill in the information I do know, and I was hoping to get your insight following that!
Nevermind, either way you're right, it's all theory and supposition, I'll never really know! :roll:
Well as I read it, it all comes down to the (previously unheard of) lubricating properties of the new plastic £5, £10 & £20 notes.
If you feed enough of them into the car it miraculously repairs it.
Simon 3.2M
Senior member
Great write up Ed and I’m glad it is sorted so you can now concentrate on more important thing! It is good that the “potential” issue of flattened followers has been raised, whilst maybe a little premature for our cars, it’s is something that may become common as times goes on.
I think above all, the saga highlights the highly strung nature of the S54 and the fact that ultimately, there is no rhyme nor reason as to when failures occur also service history and mileage are not a concrete indicator of engine health. As others have mentioned, factor at least rod bearings in when purchasing an M and be aware of other costs that could arise.
Makes me glad my car rarely sees the Rev counter go past 5k
I think above all, the saga highlights the highly strung nature of the S54 and the fact that ultimately, there is no rhyme nor reason as to when failures occur also service history and mileage are not a concrete indicator of engine health. As others have mentioned, factor at least rod bearings in when purchasing an M and be aware of other costs that could arise.
Makes me glad my car rarely sees the Rev counter go past 5k
Congrats on the baby! Enjoy the early days - they are magic - and keep the car taxed so you can clear your head when you need to.
Very impressed by Redish. I could watch those vids all day long. My engine also now has DLC followers, because once upon a time...
Very impressed by Redish. I could watch those vids all day long. My engine also now has DLC followers, because once upon a time...
MrPT said:Congrats on the baby! Enjoy the early days - they are magic - and keep the car taxed so you can clear your head when you need to.
Very impressed by Redish. I could watch those vids all day long. My engine also now has DLC followers, because once upon a time...
CAD7D388-E8D1-4E9D-B860-ED722EE5191E.jpeg
626FA45D-C640-403B-9F46-D306FF7688FE.jpeg
......... the originals failed
but if my memory is correct there was a fair amount of speculation at the time as to why ?Strange that the ticking started soon after a trackday & wasn't there issue with incorrect oil filter & missed service ?
I'm sure the previous owner of your car had lengthy posts at the time but once again top end failure linked to tracking / poor oil circulation imo
BMWZ4MC said:
The previous owner probably just needed new followers but went the Schrick route for the same reasons as Ed, and picked up a number of other new bits on the way (springs, seats etc). CPC did the top end work - the cams were perfect and didn’t even need a polish. This is in addition to the bottom end shells and oil pump being replaced by BMW - the shells were through to the copper but hadn’t spun/failed.
mr wilks said:
The oil filter “issue” was that BMW initially wouldn’t do the bottom end under warranty due to it having an Eventuri fitted. The service history has one extra Insp 1 (inc oil) instead of an oil service (boo hoo) and quite a late run-in check (1700 miles). By coincidence, both the previous major inspections and the top end were done by companies local to me so it was good to be able to speak to them prior to the purchase.
I don’t think track days directly cause these failures. If they did we’d see more incidents from people who are down the track a couple of times a month. If anything, low mileage cars which are regularly tracked are going to have been warmed through meticulously (there are other reasons you would do this other than to create healthy oil films - tyre temps, missed shifts or accidental block shifts in a cold gearbox etc) and subjected to regular mechanical inspection. Any high operating load is going to bring on an imminent failure.
The cause of S54 cam follower wear (if there is a single one) remains a mystery, especially now with Ed’s bent valve stems thrown into the mix! As he said, the wear sets on very quickly after the surface coating fails, so we’re either looking at a bearing shell-esque “consumable-masquerading-as-a-lifetime-part” situation, or there needs to be some kind of initial event that initiates the wear but doesn’t play a role in the actual failure itself.
Ed - Redish had the top end sent off for an overhaul and as part of this they said there was a lot of carbon build up on the valves and seats. I was surprised that they didn’t mention it beyond that point - surely if you have build-up in and around the valve seat you’re causing premature contact?
MrPT said:
Not trying to be arsey , pedantic or catch you out PT but you are skating over relevant facts RE your own cars possible reason for fails , its all documented on the forum pages ,
The service history flaw being 2yrs 8 months between services , the oil filter issue being that the one on the car at point of fail was deemed incorrect due to number of vanes & the cams that went back in yours were the originals not the Schrick ones .
As for " i don't think track days directly cause these failures " ? Its all conjecture no matter which side of the divide you sit .
The whole topic of S54 engine fails from either top or bottom has been one i've studied a lot before purchasing a S54 , a lot during ownership of 4 different S54 & continue to be interested , of all the forum cars that experienced fails ( & there have been maybe 6 or 7 in last 7-8 yrs? ) there has nearly always been a connection between cold thrashing / trackday / poor service record / dirty oil / low oil etc i think mmmfive is the only one with low mile failure for no apparent reason , his later fail coming at the end of a Ring visit on a leggy engine .
Now its no big newsflash that S54 do not cope well with extreme heat ( not many engines do ) along with low or poor oil circulation & both these factors weigh heavy with tracking even in short 20 min bursts , as for the capacity to rev to 8k
ive covered over 20k mostly spirited miles in 4 different S54s & you would be wringing its neck to need that part of of the rev range or even be needing to go close to it for everyday / weekend jaunt / euro touring . I'm not derailing Eds thread or trying to dig him in the ribs with this , its relevant to what he implies at the end of his post being
" 2. In my opinion, the issue of worn cams and followers is something that we will increasingly see as mileage increases on the S54 in the Z4. This is something that is increasingly seen on S54 M3s, where generally the M3s are more regularly used so general mileage is higher than the comparable Z4M for the same age of car. It is my view that, irrespective of whether the car has been tracked or now, owners and prospective owners should be aware of this issue "
I think the total opposite , i think its only a concern for those wanting to push the cars to the limit which is near on impossible on UK roads
Engines wear with miles , that's a fact but a S54 that has been treat well regarding correct warm up , sympathetically used regarding the rev range & over serviced from Bmw recommendations with yearly or 6-7k oil services ( whichever comes first) then those owners really have little to be worried about regarding top end failure based on cases that have shown up here .
Also worth noting these cars are now getting to 14yrs old , multi owners & varying mileage , whacking them round tracks because they were designed for it is going to end badly sooner or later without significant spend / upgrades prior like TomK like BMWZMC have done .
mr wilks said:
It does come across that way, mate, sorry. The car was SORN indoors in 2012. The “gap”, in which 6500 miles were covered, was also after the extra Insp 1. As the car didn’t sell for a while, I had 6 weeks to learn as much as I could about these issues and, as I said, by pure luck I was able to speak to the local specialists that serviced it. I also drove to Ipswich BMW with the previous owner (who, might I also add, let me test drive it on an airfield!) to pick up a copy of the itemised invoice for the bottom end overhaul.
Old cams went back in, yep - that’s what I said. Schrick ones were purchased but returned.
Can only agree with you here.
MrPT said:
Take it whatever way you like but i am honestly not having a poke at you in any way other than exploring a topic that interests many & highlighting facts that are relevant as to why cam followers "randomly" fail when the potential answers are hard to ignore .
Re the Schrick , my mistake for misreading your words :? "The previous owner probably just needed new followers but went the Schrick route for the same reasons as Ed " :?
The issue of incorrect oil filter being questioned i suspect would be more relevant than either the service record or having the Eventuri fitted with regard potential low oil supply on the track visit prior to fail ?