The jab ..

[rdgreen]

Does this magic vaccination certificate stop you from getting or spreading the virus?

Yep....you won't be allowed in without it.

So all under 16s, those with severe allergies and pregnant women are all banned from entering Aus? Just given that they cannot have the magic vaccine is all :idunno:

There will no doubt be exclusions for those with valid reasons....same as for those that need vaccinations for other diseases.

Yep....you won't be allowed in without it.

So all under 16s, those with severe allergies and pregnant women are all banned from entering Aus? Just given that they cannot have the magic vaccine is all :idunno:

My understanding is if one person tests positive for covid they lock the buggers up for I think 10 days.

I am very interested to see how this pans out for them. It's going to be a rough old time when the government can lock you up, close your business at any given point.

14 days actually....and that's for everyone who has had contact with the carrier, or that arrives in country with, or without, the virus no exceptions....that's if you can get a flight in the first place. It's panning out pretty well....economy grew by 3.1% last quarter, most people back to work. For many (apart from Victoria) not much changed and that's because the government took a hard line from the start and 'only' 909 deaths (of which 820 were in Victoria due to poor leadership) have been recorded since the start of the pandemic.

 

[Flyingfifer]

I apologise in advance here because I have not read the first 106 pages of this thread.

I, as an example, never EVER go to the doctors unless I really need to (twice in 30 years IIRC). I am 53 years old, I have smoked for 38 years and I drink like a fish! More so in the last 12 months!

I hate the idea of needles and am having nightmares about having the vaccine. Suffice to say I am not a hypochondriac.

BUT I will have it, 100%. I am waiting for the call with baited breath. I can't wait. Not for me; not even for my family; for the resumption of life as we know it and to stop the mutations which will, if we carry on, continue this nightmare situation for the foreseeable future.

If we can't control this pandemic ourselves, which we blatantly obviously can't, science needs to come to our rescue. It has, luckily.

Covid 19 (SARS Covid-2) vaccinations should be mandatory! That is not an opinion, that is a requirement of the human race as we know it. Unfortunately in this situation, we live in a "free" Country. Our Government dare not make this vaccine mandatory for fear of backlash from "civil liberties" and Human Rights Lawyers. This is an unfortunate upshot of the world we have lived in up until now. THE WORLD HAS CHANGED since this time last year.

I have spent a great deal of time in the last 11 1/2 months studying all the information of this disease and SARS (which it is a direct mutation of) and if we do not take advantage of the brilliant work the scientists have done in record time, this virus will keep on affecting our lives for the foreseeable future.

As of today, 3rd March, look up what is starting to happen in Germany with a third wave from a new mutant strain.

We have been probably the worst Country in the world (along with the USA) at dealing with this. We have a way out as long as we do it now. PLEASE GET VACCINATED.

Cheers. Rant over

[youtube]CxoKjwudruw[/youtube]

 

[Deleted member 32480]

well....economy grew by 3.1%

Ours grew by 1% and 16.1% in the previous 1/4.

These numbers mean very little when you look at the small part of the larger picture.

 

[Nanu]

I would fight for peoples right to refuse the vaccine should they wish. It is called freedom of choice. They can hold whatever opinions they like on the data. But their views and decisions come with consequences. Lets see how they react when airlines for instance exercise their freedom of choice and decide they cannot fly without a vaccine certificate. Certain professions refuse to employ people without a vaccination certificate. Lets see how many suddenly have a change of heart.

The airline's will have no say in this what so ever. They need the money so 100% won't be discriminating against anyone. It will be government's that force their hand.

We can't jab children at the moment so shall we start discriminating against them now soon?

The airlines are private companies so Govt will have no say in who they allow or don't allow onboard. Same as shops, they decide who they allow into their premises. As for children, great, adults only flights. Bring it on. Should have happened years ago.

PS Ever thought that the airlines may loose passengers if they allow unvaccinated people on board?

 

[Deleted member 32480]

I would fight for peoples right to refuse the vaccine should they wish. It is called freedom of choice. They can hold whatever opinions they like on the data. But their views and decisions come with consequences. Lets see how they react when airlines for instance exercise their freedom of choice and decide they cannot fly without a vaccine certificate. Certain professions refuse to employ people without a vaccination certificate. Lets see how many suddenly have a change of heart.

The airline's will have no say in this what so ever. They need the money so 100% won't be discriminating against anyone. It will be government's that force their hand.

We can't jab children at the moment so shall we start discriminating against them now soon?

The airlines are private companies so Govt will have no say in who they allow or don't allow onboard. Same as shops, they decide who they allow into their premises. As for children, great, adults only flights. Bring it on. Should have happened years ago.

PS Ever thought that the airlines may loose passengers if they allow unvaccinated people on board?

I think you are wrong here. If the government say people aren't allowed in "X" country without a vaccination then 100% the airline's will not let you on the plane. It will have nothing to do with the airline's as it's government policy.

Using your logic (no logic) then why not just ban old people and people with pre-existing medical conditions? They are the ones at risk- stop them flying? Lock them up (see how ridiculous this sounds).

As for not letting kids fly? Kinda of stops alot of traffic because last time I checked they usually flew with a family?

I think for most reasonable people- the ones that are not drunk with fear from the media and government pounding (or maybe not so intellectually challenged) they are more likely to chose a airline/business that is not discriminating against people that have opted not to take an experimental vaccine.

I don't think I know anyone in real life that wouldn't support the above tbh. My guess is a fair few of you on here would

 

[Perjorative]

...opted not to take an experimental vaccine.

Would you kindly stop peddling this bullshit!

You moan about the media peddling fear but you, and others, are trying to do the same thing by constantly calling the vaccines 'experimental'

The vaccines stopped being 'experimental' when they received approval for public use.

Multiple countries have had their experts study the data/test methodology and have approved the vaccines.

You're saying that all those experts in all those different countries are wrong and you, with your complete lack of training in virology, are better suited to pass judgement...? I think I know who appears the more 'intellectually challenged' here...

 

[Deleted member 32480]

...opted not to take an experimental vaccine.

Would you kindly stop peddling this bullshit!

You moan about the media peddling fear but you, and others, are trying to do the same thing by constantly calling the vaccines 'experimental'

The vaccines stopped being 'experimental' when they received approval for public use.

Multiple countries have had their experts study the data/test methodology and have approved the vaccines.

You're saying that all those experts in all those different countries are wrong and you, with your complete lack of training in virology, are better suited to pass judgement...? I think I know who appears the more 'intellectually challenged' here...

Oh here we go.

I have triggered one.

It is an experimental vaccine that has been approved for emergency use. Have a quick read of the below (I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings to much).

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/what-is-emergency-use-authorization.html

I am pro choice. I's your choice to put it in your arm it's my choice to not. I have no intention of taking away your choice and I would like you to respect mine and have an open debate into why you choose you choice and why I choose mine. I will not try to shut you down and if you are able to provide some facts to your claims it will make the conversation a little more legitimate.

In my opinion (and I can back it up with facts)- I look at the ages of the people that die on a daily basis knowing that the people that did die- died within 28 days of a positive test (or a doctor said they died with covid without a test). I see that this is a disease that effects the over 60's (especially the over 80's) and people with medical conditions.

Am I denying that it will kill and harm some young people- no. But walking across the road, catching a cold etc also do.

Is the juice worth the squeeze for me? 36, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? I dont think so.

Is it worth is for my mother- 65, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? I think so.

Is it worth is for my grandmother- 96, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? 100%.

If something goes wrong (remember we have 8 months-ish worth of data on the long term effects of this vaccine:
Is it worth is for my grandmother- she is 15 years over UK life expectancy. It would be terrible for her to suffer side effects but any long term effects are not going to be as bad for say my mother (16 years until life expectancy) or me (45 years until life expectancy).

It's not a one size fit's all discussion. It's about individual needs. If I was say diabetic and fat then 100% I would take the vaccine at 36. I am not an anti-vaxer, it has a purpose.

Like with everything in life- business, trading, that extra 3 pints on a Saturday night- it's all about risk/reward.

"But it's been passed so it's perfectly safe Mike"
Ok dude. so was the vaccine for h1n1 10 years ago. What ever happened with that.

I don't expect you to change your mind- I don't want you too- more power to you for having it. But on an equal standing I am not going to be convinced the other way because some old farts on the z4 forum drunk with fear from the government and the MSM want to go full totalitarianism on everyone as they think that the more people that have the jab the less chance they stand of getting it.

 

[Nictrix]

...opted not to take an experimental vaccine.

Would you kindly stop peddling this bullshit!

You moan about the media peddling fear but you, and others, are trying to do the same thing by constantly calling the vaccines 'experimental'

The vaccines stopped being 'experimental' when they received approval for public use.

Multiple countries have had their experts study the data/test methodology and have approved the vaccines.

You're saying that all those experts in all those different countries are wrong and you, with your complete lack of training in virology, are better suited to pass judgement...? I think I know who appears the more 'intellectually challenged' here...

Oh here we go.

I have triggered one.

It is an experimental vaccine that has been approved for emergency use. Have a quick read of the below (I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings to much).

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/what-is-emergency-use-authorization.html

I am pro choice. I's your choice to put it in your arm it's my choice to not. I have no intention of taking away your choice and I would like you to respect mine and have an open debate into why you choose you choice and why I choose mine. I will not try to shut you down and if you are able to provide some facts to your claims it will make the conversation a little more legitimate.

In my opinion (and I can back it up with facts)- I look at the ages of the people that die on a daily basis knowing that the people that did die- died within 28 days of a positive test (or a doctor said they died with covid without a test). I see that this is a disease that effects the over 60's (especially the over 80's) and people with medical conditions.

Am I denying that it will kill and harm some young people- no. But walking across the road, catching a cold etc also do.

Is the juice worth the squeeze for me? 36, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? I dont think so.

Is it worth is for my mother- 65, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? I think so.

Is it worth is for my grandmother- 96, healthy, no pre-existing medical conditions? 100%.

If something goes wrong (remember we have 8 months-ish worth of data on the long term effects of this vaccine:
Is it worth is for my grandmother- she is 15 years over UK life expectancy. It would be terrible for her to suffer side effects but any long term effects are not going to be as bad for say my mother (16 years until life expectancy) or me (45 years until life expectancy).

It's not a one size fit's all discussion. It's about individual needs. If I was say diabetic and fat then 100% I would take the vaccine at 36. I am not an anti-vaxer, it has a purpose.

Like with everything in life- business, trading, that extra 3 pints on a Saturday night- it's all about risk/reward.

"But it's been passed so it's perfectly safe Mike"
Ok dude. so was the vaccine for h1n1 10 years ago. What ever happened with that.

I don't expect you to change your mind- I don't want you too- more power to you for having it. But on an equal standing I am not going to be convinced the other way because some old farts on the z4 forum drunk with fear from the government and the MSM want to go full totalitarianism on everyone as they think that the more people that have the jab the less chance they stand of getting it.

Im sure I also read somewhere that it was in a testing phase until 2023.

 

[Deleted member 32480]

Incidentally,

Yesterday was a bit of a landmark day. The died with testing positive for covid within 28 days hospital deaths of the over 80's was below that of the 60-79 age range for the 1st time that I have seen.

It's shows that it's working for them. For context a 3 months ago it was always 50%+ more than the 60-79 age bracket.

I expect the numbers to hang around for a little while close to the 60-79 bracket before vaccination on that age group drops down further by the end of the month.

Either way, the over 65's and the people with medical conditions contribute to over 90%+ of the deaths so we are for sure on the winning straight.

 

[Ed.Straker]

I’ve read this thread with amusement / despair as the usual anti vaxers / respect my rights go through their well rehearsed arguments....

Vaccines try to achieve many objectives for public health.

One primary objective is to reduce the amount of and the number of variants of a virus in circulation.

Achieving herd immunity globally which for this virus can only be achieved via vaccination is a key desirable objective.

Allowing this class of virus to unnecessarily propagate and hence evolve is not good..it means that more global immunisation programs than necessary will be needed.

Of course once nation states have climbed a logistical learning curve they can repeatedly run major vaccinations programs, but, those resources and the second order ramifications of new variants will be an unnecessary drain on global health resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Of course, clearly, as demonstrated here those that are fervently self believing won’t change, but it’s really important that there views are not allowed to sway the many who are susceptible to headline simplified fake news and need to be part of the ‘herd’ for the greater good of mankind.

Given these virus variants ‘free R number’ ie how fast they would propitiate in the absence of controls and the current vaccine efficacy the number required to achieve herd status is needed to be in the 90%+ area

 

[Deleted member 32480]

Achieving herd immunity globally which for this virus can only be achieved via vaccination is a key desirable objective

Just not true is it. Any evidence you can provide to support this?

Of course, clearly, as demonstrated here those that are fervently self believing won’t change, but it’s really important that there views are not allowed to sway the many who are susceptible to headline simplified fake news and need to be part of the ‘herd’ for the greater good of mankind.

You have said that you have read the thread. Who in this thread has told you to not have the vaccine? Who has tried to "sway" you?

Given these virus variants ‘free R number’ ie how fast they would propitiate in the absence of controls and the current vaccine efficacy the number required to achieve herd status is needed to be in the 90%+ area

Makes sense if immunity was only ever achieved by getting a jab and no one had some natural immunity.

 

[Flyingfifer]

I’ve read this thread with amusement / despair as the usual anti vaxers / respect my rights go through their well rehearsed arguments....

Vaccines try to achieve many objectives for public health.

One primary objective is to reduce the amount of and the number of variants of a virus in circulation.

Achieving herd immunity globally which for this virus can only be achieved via vaccination is a key desirable objective.

Allowing this class of virus to unnecessarily propagate and hence evolve is not good..it means that more global immunisation programs than necessary will be needed.

Of course once nation states have climbed a logistical learning curve they can repeatedly run major vaccinations programs, but, those resources and the second order ramifications of new variants will be an unnecessary drain on global health resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Of course, clearly, as demonstrated here those that are fervently self believing won’t change, but it’s really important that there views are not allowed to sway the many who are susceptible to headline simplified fake news and need to be part of the ‘herd’ for the greater good of mankind.

Given these virus variants ‘free R number’ ie how fast they would propitiate in the absence of controls and the current vaccine efficacy the number required to achieve herd status is needed to be in the 90%+ area

What about those that arent "aNtI vAxErS" but arent keen on getting the vaccine?

While being able to wipe out the virus globally is obviously desirable its also highly unlikely, humanity has only managed to do this once in Smallpox, every other virus persists despite massive efforts.

Personally I'm happy to have my mind changed :idunno: once there is a strong body of evidence that the vaccine has no major long term side effects I will be far more inclined to take it. As mgrlane said being in my early 30s if it transpires in a year or two that this has awful side effects I will have to live with them a hell of a lot longer than someone in their 80s, I keep coming back to this over and over but it perfectly illustrates the point, Thalidomide, touted as perfectly safe and all good for use with pregnant women, that led to around 10,000 people being directly effected and they still are, babies that survived were born significantly disabled and have had to live with that their entire life.

Also again there seems to be this "magic bullet" mentality around the vaccine, this is either blind optimism or plain stupidity.
As far as we know at the moment it does not prevent you catching and spreading the virus, that also means it does not prevent you being the platform for mutation, also given the vaccine is RNA related who's to say what effect that might have on mutations as the virus interacts with it, I believe this one of the first if not the first use of this type of vaccine.

If you want the vaccine, go for it I am 100% behind you, I have and will encourage anyone in their 60s> to have it including my parents, but personally, on balance, I dont think its for me at the moment... what a monster I am right :roll:

 

[Deleted member 32480]

Personally I'm happy to have my mind changed once there is a strong body of evidence that the vaccine has no major long term side effects I will be far more inclined to take it. As mgrlane said being in my early 30s if it transpires in a year or two that this has awful side effects I will have to live with them a hell of a lot longer than someone in their 80s

Mate, you are so selfish. How dare you do your own research and make a choice that's right for you? And how dare you encourage others to do so. You must be an aNtI vAxEr if you are not having the jab!

Just get in line, take the jab and get on with it so boomer can get on with his/her life and feel a bit safer regardless of the protection they already have from having the vaccine.

 

[Flyingfifer]

Mate, you are so selfish. How dare you do your own research and make a choice that's right for you? And how dare you encourage others to do so. You must be an aNtI vAxEr if you are not having the jab!

Just get in line, take the jab and get on with it so boomer can get on with his/her life and feel a bit safer regardless of the protection they already have from having the vaccine.

You're absolutely right, obviously I must also believe that the earth is flat and that the moon landings were faked and that there is a cabal of lizard people controlling the world :spy:

 

[Ed.Straker]

Several points to clarify if I may...

Most viral replication happens when the host has no antibodies that recognise it....so the reason you get ill then better is that initially the virus can run amok until the volume of antibodies created by your body start to approximate to the number of virus particles in your body....then after that point the antibodies continue to grow and the virus is overwhelmed..hence you get better..

Like all biological systems you are dealing with a combination of the laws of probability and therefore across humanity there will be a spread of responses to any virus.

The more people that are infected without a vaccine the greater the probability of virus mutation by a function of time in each body and the number of bodies infected and any other biochemical / genetic / under lying conditions each host has.

The reason mankind has not eliminated most viruses is that in the past we did not have the technological understanding / ability to do the necessary genetic engineering and in many cases the cost / benefit equation to mankind was not with the effort.

With vaccination in this case we are seeking to fight the virus to a standstill, where the virus may still exist, but in such a form that we no longer care for most of society...that is the infection is no longer a threat to mankind...we have millions of such viruses obviously most are irrelevant to man.

Given that public health by its nature in the absence of vaccination will use other medical interventions to treat people, the more people infected, usually for long periods will result in more genetic mutations occurring within a host, some of which may mutate whilst there, conferring a survival or propagation advantage.

So vaccines achieve many advantages over other routes...

You can vaccinate for several known variants in one go...if you relied on natural infection then you would have to have several different infections..a bit like common colds where having one cold virus doesn’t protect you from the next.

Herd immunity for a virus like this one will never be achieved without vaccination for the common cold type issues.

What will be required is probably a 5-10 year program of successive vaccination programs that will eventually leave it with nowhere to go / evolve into.

The reason we call it public health and not my health is we are not interested in your personal health..we are interested in mankind as a whole..

By not participating in vaccination and other public health programs you are contributing to the propagation of the virus by default...so indirectly responsible for wasting precious resources and causing unnecessary suffering...and importantly wilfully so...

 

[Deleted member 32480]

The Spanish flu lasted around two years [ref]Ed.Straker[/ref], was far more deadlier than the Covid we have- it took people from all ages and there were no vaccines at this point.

 

[Ed.Straker]

The Spanish flu lasted around two years [ref]Ed.Straker[/ref], was far more deadlier than the Covid we have- it took people from all ages and there were no vaccines at this point.

Europa orbits Jupiter, Saturn orbits the Sun..your point being?

Most public health organisations compare Covid 19 epidemic and the Spanish Flu epidemic in broadly equivalent scales of economic, political and health impacts..albeit for different reasons .. interesting article on this matter here.. https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/08/postgradmedj-2020-139070

So apart from trying to left field the conversation what's your point as relevant to the current thread on vaccinations?

 

[Flyingfifer]

Several points to clarify if I may...

Most viral replication happens when the host has no antibodies that recognise it....so the reason you get ill then better is that initially the virus can run amok until the volume of antibodies created by your body start to approximate to the number of virus particles in your body....then after that point the antibodies continue to grow and the virus is overwhelmed..hence you get better..

Like all biological systems you are dealing with a combination of the laws of probability and therefore across humanity there will be a spread of responses to any virus.

The more people that are infected without a vaccine the greater the probability of virus mutation by a function of time in each body and the number of bodies infected and any other biochemical / genetic / under lying conditions each host has.

The reason mankind has not eliminated most viruses is that in the past we did not have the technological understanding / ability to do the necessary genetic engineering and in many cases the cost / benefit equation to mankind was not with the effort.

With vaccination in this case we are seeking to fight the virus to a standstill, where the virus may still exist, but in such a form that we no longer care for most of society...that is the infection is no longer a threat to mankind...we have millions of such viruses obviously most are irrelevant to man.

Given that public health by its nature in the absence of vaccination will use other medical interventions to treat people, the more people infected, usually for long periods will result in more genetic mutations occurring within a host, some of which may mutate whilst there, conferring a survival or propagation advantage.

So vaccines achieve many advantages over other routes...

You can vaccinate for several known variants in one go...if you relied on natural infection then you would have to have several different infections..a bit like common colds where having one cold virus doesn’t protect you from the next.

Herd immunity for a virus like this one will never be achieved without vaccination for the common cold type issues.

What will be required is probably a 5-10 year program of successive vaccination programs that will eventually leave it with nowhere to go / evolve into.

The reason we call it public health and not my health is we are not interested in your personal health..we are interested in mankind as a whole..

By not participating in vaccination and other public health programs you are contributing to the propagation of the virus by default...so indirectly responsible for wasting precious resources and causing unnecessary suffering...and importantly wilfully so...

Firstly, to say "Most viral replication happens when the host has no antibodies that recognise it" is a misrepresentation, we don't have an army of antibodies ready to fight every virus/bacteria we have even encountered instead the immune system retains the knowledge of the virus (antigens, T & B cells) which allows an immune response to be more effective and react quicker. COVID19 is "novel" because it was new and by definition not encountered before however the flu which we basically deal with in perpetuity is not.

I agree the technological aspect of vaccine production (especially in this case) is extremely new, partly why I am less keen. As such we have no idea how this will interact "in the wild" when COVID encounters it and mutations occur, we also do not know that being vaccinated will automatically prevent you being the source of a mutation, especially given that we do know that you will still carry and spread the virus.

You are putting a lot of effort in here to big up vaccinations but you are (in the main) speaking to people who themselves are vaccinated and support vaccination but have reservations about the long term implications of vaccination and are balancing that on the 98% or so recovery rate for an infection, again reiterating that vaccination DOES NOT prevent infection or transmission therefore you are not protecting others by being vaccinated.

 

[Deleted member 32480]

The Spanish flu lasted around two years [ref]Ed.Straker[/ref], was far more deadlier than the Covid we have- it took people from all ages and there were no vaccines at this point.

Europa orbits Jupiter, Saturn orbits the Sun..your point being?

Most public health organisations compare Covid 19 epidemic and the Spanish Flu epidemic in broadly equivalent scales of economic, political and health impacts..albeit for different reasons .. interesting article on this matter here.. https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/08/postgradmedj-2020-139070

So apart from trying to left field the conversation what's your point as relevant to the current thread on vaccinations?

If you can't see how The Spanish flu is relevant to this discussion I can't help you mate.

 

[Nanu]

[/quote]

I think you are wrong here. If the government say people aren't allowed in "X" country without a vaccination then 100% the airline's will not let you on the plane. It will have nothing to do with the airline's as it's government policy.

Using your logic (no logic) then why not just ban old people and people with pre-existing medical conditions? They are the ones at risk- stop them flying? Lock them up (see how ridiculous this sounds).

As for not letting kids fly? Kinda of stops alot of traffic because last time I checked they usually flew with a family?

I think for most reasonable people- the ones that are not drunk with fear from the media and government pounding (or maybe not so intellectually challenged) they are more likely to chose a airline/business that is not discriminating against people that have opted not to take an experimental vaccine.

I don't think I know anyone in real life that wouldn't support the above tbh. My guess is a fair few of you on here would
[/quote]
you miss the point. Even if Govts allow people into their countries without needing a vaccine, the Airlines can choose who they allow on the plane. Easy Jet could have a policy no vaccine no fly and they wouldn't let you on the plane regardless of what Govts say.
As usual you take all reasonable arguments to the extreme. Kids do fly with families not everyone who flies has have kids. That's why we have adults only hotels all over the world. I know I use them. AS for old people, last time I saw the roll out of the vaccine it was the oldest in society that were first in line with a 99% take up. There are not many pre existing conditions that preclude you from being vaccinated. My friend with stage 4 cancer and undergoing Chemo has had hers.

If you don't want it that is fine by me and I suspect the majority of people on this forum. That is your choice. Just enjoy your life and the restrictions your choices bring.