CornishRob
Senior member
Beedub said:
So simply the floaters are better as they can move etc but more expensive so you choose what you want?
The beasts are fitted.....some crap pics page 15
- Thread starter ncrossy1980
- Start date
So simply the floaters are better as they can move etc but more expensive so you choose what you want?
By the seaside...
Sars, as I mentioned earlier, as far as I can ascertain, the Taiwanese manufacturers of these kits don't 'recommend' combinations of front/rear brakes. They make a variety of sizes of rotors/calipers and bundle them with a fitting kit for the specified car - all they do is tell you what sizes they have for front & rear of a particular car - and often will only specify just the car model without differentiating between versions e.g. all D2 kits for the non-M E85 are 'suitable' for all cars from 2003-2008, no matter what engine sizesars said:
For the cars they have fitment for they sell front kits and they sell rear kits, they don't sell complete 4-wheel kits - it's left up to the buyer to decide what they want and, if they order/fit two kits and get it wrong, the manufacturer isn't responsible as they've never said that it's a suitable combination for that car
This is exactly the point I was making earlier, the breaking performance is limited by the traction of the tyres not the size of the brakes - for any given braking 'event' the OEM setup should be capable of performing to the same level as your setup but couldn't hope to replicate the consistency when used hard & repeatedly on a track.Beedub said:
That said, I accept that with slick/sticky tyres you may get to the point where it's the OEM brakes that limit the performance rather than the tyre traction
Every car on the road is front biassed (maybe some exotics excepted...) and pretty heavy front biassed too imho.sars said:
Every stock car that I know of or have driven that brakes in a straight line locks up first on the front.
Believe me, if your rear locks up.. you cant steer either :wink:
D2 is taiwanese (a fairly big company).
As for ksport (that name came by briefly I saw): I don't know who makes their stuff: BC or D2 (those are both true taiwanese manufacturing companies; afaik ksport is a rebrander and orders all their stuff incl the printed brand at other companies).
But as for all manufactureres: they dont manufacture all the parts they sell, there are obviously subcontracters/parts suppliers.
I think you'll find that the brake kits are manufactured in Taiwan - anecdotal evidence appears to suggest that the kits for a number of brands in this price bracket D2, K-Sport etc. are made in the same factories and just lightly 'customised' for the individual brandssars said:
There was a group buy on one of the US forums a few years back where they bought the kits direct from the Taiwanese factory at a much reduced price - all they were missing was the graphics
sars said:
No problem - love a good technical debate
The information I have posted is as you say more generalised, but the inherent certainty is that as brakes are applied the vehicles mass transfers forward - Centre of mass is to some extent irrelevant as the harder you brake, the more forward the centre of mass will be. Therefore it a front bias is certainly more favourable as the front brakes will always do more work in arresting the vehicle's motion. Your reference to f1 brake bias adjustment is however slightly beside the point in this instance - they are adjusting brake bias to account for tyre temperatres and wear levels - overheating for instance the front tyres will reduce turn-in grip and therefore adjusting brake bias rearward will cause slightly more rotation on corner-entry, effectively negating that reduction in turn-in grip.
In reference to the manufacturer margin for error - surely you can see that increasing the rear brake bad/disc contact area to the same size as the front with no other changes will have a significant effect on brake bias rearward. We're not talking about manufacturer tolerances here - we're taking about a significant percentage increase in braking force, and crucially nothing like on the same scale by which the fronts have been increased in size...
sars said:
Technically not correct. You're talking about going past the point of maximum braking force - ie when the wheels lock. The information I posted states - causing the fronts to lock results in the driver having time to release the brakes and regain control of the car. Rear bias results in an uncontrollable spin - again both scenarios are past the point of maximum braking force - when the wheels lock.
Just to clarify also - don't mean for any of my responses to sound arsey or anything - the internet has a way of misconstruing tone of voice !
I think that this just answers that D2 racing at least makes some calipers for k-sport:
(or at least: they come from the same factory: it might just as well be possible that neither one of them have their own foundry, and that they use a 3rd supplier foundry. but these calipers are the same)
But where are the pictures from the rest of the goodies?
Especially the rear calipers and disks?
Can you make a picture from the back side of the rear disk?
(or at least: they come from the same factory: it might just as well be possible that neither one of them have their own foundry, and that they use a 3rd supplier foundry. but these calipers are the same)
But where are the pictures from the rest of the goodies?
Especially the rear calipers and disks?
Can you make a picture from the back side of the rear disk?
All this debate about brake bias is a waste of your time and effort in typing it.
Jonny's already admitted the car doesn't leave the garage if it's not sunny. It's a 148bhp car that might get blown up to 250 but will never see a track. He doesn't need the BBK and it will never get used in anger. It's a 'just for show' mod so let the lad get on with it and as long as he's happy with the looks that's all that matters. Save the theory for someone who intends to use the kit for what it was designed for.
Jonny's already admitted the car doesn't leave the garage if it's not sunny. It's a 148bhp car that might get blown up to 250 but will never see a track. He doesn't need the BBK and it will never get used in anger. It's a 'just for show' mod so let the lad get on with it and as long as he's happy with the looks that's all that matters. Save the theory for someone who intends to use the kit for what it was designed for.
After all the comments, does anyone know the answer to following questions
1. What is the correct brake bias percentage front and rear for a 2.0 litre turbo E85 (as this is his aim)
2. What percentage change to the rear brake bias will cause instability under hard breaking
3. What percentage change to the front brake bias will cause instability under hard breaking
4. What is the ideal disc diameter and caliper configuration front/rear to give optimum breaking performance for a 2.0 litre turbo E85
Ed Doe, PerryGunn, & GuidoK, as you are the main protagonists wrt to Jonny having a train wreck, I would expect you will already have the answers to these questions in order to be so against his decisions.
I for one don't have the answers, but I trust that the ISO 9001 manufacturer, be it in Taiwan or North America has done its home work, because that is there business and through their agents around the globe, their responsibility.
1. What is the correct brake bias percentage front and rear for a 2.0 litre turbo E85 (as this is his aim)
2. What percentage change to the rear brake bias will cause instability under hard breaking
3. What percentage change to the front brake bias will cause instability under hard breaking
4. What is the ideal disc diameter and caliper configuration front/rear to give optimum breaking performance for a 2.0 litre turbo E85
Ed Doe, PerryGunn, & GuidoK, as you are the main protagonists wrt to Jonny having a train wreck, I would expect you will already have the answers to these questions in order to be so against his decisions.
I for one don't have the answers, but I trust that the ISO 9001 manufacturer, be it in Taiwan or North America has done its home work, because that is there business and through their agents around the globe, their responsibility.
sars said:
In what way am I against JE's decisions? :scratchhead:
As for the answers on your questions:
1. 50+x and 50-y
2. y
3. -x
4. optimum braking performance is a matter of how the car is used. As the car won't get significantly heavier, there is in fact no change needed legally. The mass of the car is the parameter on if the brakes are adequate enough to come to a standstill within the legal required parameters.
Also the legal amount of pulling weight isnt changed (at least, I don't think he's planning on a tow bar or anything like that to be needing more power...)
Just brake hard on a quiet open road (in the evenings or so) in dry & wet conditions when they're installed.
You'll know instantly if the brake bias is too far off to the wrong side as you'll be able to see where you came from.... :lol:
My bet is that the balance will feel rather equally. Still front biassed.
You'll know instantly if the brake bias is too far off to the wrong side as you'll be able to see where you came from.... :lol:
My bet is that the balance will feel rather equally. Still front biassed.
Are you able to exchange the rears if they do effect the handling too much after the first spirited drive?
My first post which i wrote was about how original master cylinder will work. That was kind of thinking just this brake bias thing. I have driven couple of cars which had brakes upgraded both front and rear. Brake bias was horrible and dangerous. After bias valve was fitted it was better, but compared to stock setup worse.
My comments are based in this experience. I know there is full kits available which have been properly designed and tested to suit car which they are upgrading parts, but i am still little bit nervous with these kind of things. OEM Factory brakes work, and are safe.
My honest opinion: Buy ///M Model which have a) good big brakes and perfect bias from factory b) enough power for most people. Also it do have hydraulic steering which is so much better than electric.Another point of view, if you ever will sell your car, i bet you get better money from ///M model compared to your 2.0 with big brakes and turbo modification.
I have built some project cars before, and i know how much the total price will be after they are completed, i usually do calculate every penny in excel.
My comments are based in this experience. I know there is full kits available which have been properly designed and tested to suit car which they are upgrading parts, but i am still little bit nervous with these kind of things. OEM Factory brakes work, and are safe.
My honest opinion: Buy ///M Model which have a) good big brakes and perfect bias from factory b) enough power for most people. Also it do have hydraulic steering which is so much better than electric.Another point of view, if you ever will sell your car, i bet you get better money from ///M model compared to your 2.0 with big brakes and turbo modification.
I have built some project cars before, and i know how much the total price will be after they are completed, i usually do calculate every penny in excel.
GuidoK said:
Sorry that's not an answer, it is an unsolved equation
ISO 9001 is a quality system, which is now pretty much about the mitigating of risk, which in this instance supplying aftermarket breaking systems is a pretty big risk.
My posts so far on this topic have been centered around the fact that I am not an expert in braking systems, neither is Jonny, so I would expect Jonny to ask the advice of people who are, and lets be clear that's not this forum, some may have more experience than others but we are not the experts.
If Jonny has done things correctly, then he would have specified what he had and let the D2 agents decide on what he needs, if Jonny has decided that he does not want to or needs to take the advice of the D2 agents and just picked things that look pretty, that's his decision and I believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection.
and because I don't know the answers to those questions I am not in a position to criticise his decisions, even if I find them curious.