The beasts are fitted.....some crap pics page 15

[Nictrix]

in order to be so against his decisions.

In what way am I against JE's decisions? :scratchhead:

As for the answers on your questions:

1. 50+x and 50-y
2. y
3. -x

Sorry that's not an answer, it is an unsolved equation

ISO 9001 is a quality system, which is now pretty much about the mitigating of risk, which in this instance supplying aftermarket breaking systems is a pretty big risk.

My posts so far on this topic have been centered around the fact that I am not an expert in braking systems, neither is Jonny, so I would expect Jonny to ask the advice of people who are, and lets be clear that's not this forum, some may have more experience than others but we are not the experts.

If Jonny has done things correctly, then he would have specified what he had and let the D2 agents decide on what he needs, if Jonny has decided that he does not want to or needs to take the advice of the D2 agents and just picked things that look pretty, that's his decision and I believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection.

and because I don't know the answers to those questions I am not in a position to criticise his decisions, even if I find them curious.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Sars, You are defending Jonnys decision even though Jonny has not confirmed whether the experts advised him on the best kit to buy.
Until Jonny confirms he took advice on what to fit it must be assumed that it is not an expert that has chosen this setup.
And where is the pics of the full kit??

 

[Machine monkey]

All this for a set of brakes!! JE really dose spark debate!! I think if anyone else posted this it would be 3 pages tops!!

Steve w m5 engine z4 has about this many pages. And he built a hole bloody car almost!!

 

[mmm-five]

IMHO

ISO 9001 has nothing to do with whether the product is suitable for a specific application or fit for purpose.

ISO 9001 is a certification to say that the same, consistent, quality processes have been followed and can be audited to show that. It doesn't specify the level of quality the product has to meet - just that it's consistent.

If the manufacturer decides to make chocolate teapot brakes (and I'm not saying that's the case here), as long as the tolerances are maintained, processes followed and are auditable, then they can get ISO9001 certification. Now, if you want chocolate teapot brakes and are happy with the product you receive, then you can be assured that the last set you buy will be of the same quality as the first.

The manufacturer of these brakes can have all the certification in the world, and still have a reseller who will sell them to anyone who wants them. The manufacturer probably won't even know what the calipers & disks are going on and the reseller will simply be packaging kits to sell to consumers - probably without the slightest bit of testing/development on a specific vehicle other than making a carrier to mount them.

I can't comment on the quality of D2 or K-Sport as I've never used them. Only ever used APRacing or Alcon - both of which I'd happily have again.

 

[sars]

Nictrix, I am neither defending or criticising his decision, I will say that I think upgrading his brakes before increasing the power is a good thing, but have insufficient knowledge to say whether whats purchased is suitable.

mmm-five, No ISO 9001 used to be like that many years ago, from 2008 it is a bit more in depth than making sure that you make a consistent product, for instance customer complaint procedures and rectification thereof with auditable responses, rectification and your process to deal with it is implied. As the company is TUV certified and not some local shop I would have a reasonable assurance that it is well audited, I'm not sure if there are DIN standards govening the design and testing of brake systems, but there is most definitely ISO ones

 

[CornishRob]

Nictrix, I am neither defending or criticising his decision, I will say that I think upgrading his brakes before increasing the power is a good thing, but have insufficient knowledge to say whether whats purchased is suitable.

mmm-five, No ISO 9001 used to be like that many years ago, from 2008 it is a bit more in depth than making sure that you make a consistent product, for instance customer complaint procedures and rectification thereof with auditable responses, rectification and your process to deal with it is implied. As the company is TUV certified and not some local shop I would have a reasonable assurance that it is well audited, I'm not sure if there are DIN standards govening the design and testing of brake systems, but there is most definitely ISO ones

Yes, but the product wont have failed or be of bad quality etc, it may have been used in the wrong application. This is not the manufacturers fault unless its been specifically supplied and tested as a whole product. From reading this thread, it seems JE has chosen a kit that looks the best, and has been told it will FIT.

 

[jimbo1958]

Yes, but the product wont have failed or be of bad quality etc, it may have been used in the wrong application. This is not the manufacturers fault unless its been specifically supplied and tested as a whole product. From reading this thread, it seems JE has chosen a kit that looks the best, and has been told it will FIT.

I think you're spot on there Rob.

 

[citrapara]

These threads get so out of hand.. I've been reading a few like this now. Poor bloke is just showing us he's sweet BBK then gets trolled by the same characters.

The last motorbike forum I was a member of was a lot less offensive than this one. I think that a few core posters who sprinkle across the various sub topics set the tone for the forum and it's pretty bitter!

On the bike forum guys would comment on possible errors with a setup if they had the same setup them selves.

I get the whole debate side of things but scrolling through 9 pages of speculation is a bit much.

 

[PerryGunn]

Nictrix, I am neither defending or criticising his decision, I will say that I think upgrading his brakes before increasing the power is a good thing, but have insufficient knowledge to say whether whats purchased is suitable.

mmm-five, No ISO 9001 used to be like that many years ago, from 2008 it is a bit more in depth than making sure that you make a consistent product, for instance customer complaint procedures and rectification thereof with auditable responses, rectification and your process to deal with it is implied. As the company is TUV certified and not some local shop I would have a reasonable assurance that it is well audited, I'm not sure if there are DIN standards govening the design and testing of brake systems, but there is most definitely ISO ones

Yes, but the product wont have failed or be of bad quality etc, it may have been used in the wrong application. This is not the manufacturers fault unless its been specifically supplied and tested as a whole product. From reading this thread, it seems JE has chosen a kit that looks the best, and has been told it will FIT.

This is exactly what I was saying earlier - the company produces/sells brake kits for each axle separately and the likelihood is that each brake kit, taken in isolation, will work as specified.

They tell you which of their kits will fit your car but they don't produce/sell whole-car kits so the choice of picking the correct mix/balance between front & rear is left solely to the customer. In this situation the ISO references are meaningless as there has never been any question of the 'quality' of each individual item, it's all down to how the customer has chosen to combine different products from the same manufacturer.

As an alternative example, you could have a well respected, ISO-certified-every-way-from-Sunday, household name that produces cleaning products, and you purchase a bottle of their household bleach and a bottle of their acid-based drain cleaner. In isolation each product performs exactly as specified but if you put both down your toilet together who's responsible for the chlorine gas that starts being produced?

 

[stupot67]

This is exactly what I was saying earlier - the company produces/sells brake kits for each axle separately and the likelihood is that each brake kit, taken in isolation, will work as specified.

They tell you which of their kits will fit your car but they don't produce/sell whole-car kits so the choice of picking the correct mix/balance between front & rear is left solely to the customer

Nail on the head! - If they are sold as a vehicle specific kit, and the increase in coefficient is the same front to back as %, then no problem.

The issue will be (If it proves the % increase on the rear is greater than the front), that on a fixed bias set-up like the Z's (No biasing valve sensing vehicle pitch under braking - I.E pre ABS cars), there's going to be a strong possibility of lock up under downshifting as drive is removed from the rear wheels :|

Having spent a load of time setting up biasing on my old Caterham, anyone who thinks locking up the rears before the fronts is not an issue really wants to try it (Without the safety net of ABS/DSC).

Of course JE is fitting them more as a cosmetic improvement than a performance thing which is fine - Trouble is the day he has to use them in anger in a emergency situation, does he really want to be relying solely on the DSC to keep out of the ditch

This is not meant to be a dig in any way or form, just a bit of personal experience - I enjoy reading JE's posts and his enthusiasm (As I'm sure most others do) and I wouldn't want to see him put himself in a potentialy dodgy position without a little bit of prior warning.

Stu.

 

[Nictrix]

This may or may not be relevant as the brakes are independant of each other but on motorbikes the rear brakes are always way smaller and less powerful than the fronts.
Pretty much all your braking is done using the fronts with the rear being used occassionally.
You definately dont want the rear locking up under heavy braking.
To put you in the picture our 2 1000cc bikes have 2 large disks on the front and a single small disk on the rear.
On one bike the calipers are radial 4 piston opposed and the other is radial 6 piston opposed.
Both bikes have a single piston in the rear caliper to operate the small disk.

 

[Ed Doe]

Stupot67 and Nictrix thank you. This is all I have been trying to say! I'm not having a dig because as I've said already, it is none of my business how anyone else chooses to spend money or modify their car. But without a bias valve, increasing braking at the rear by a greater amount than the relative increase in braking at the front will cause a potentially dangerous bias to the rear.

I don't want to be branded bitter anymore though so I'll refrain from further comment.


EDIT:

I've not yet had a chance to properly review it but to get somewhere in the ballpark I'm terms of bias settings (or at least to ascertain that you do need a bias valve!) try the calculator at http://www.brakepower.com

 

[original guvnor]

I think he'll be okay with this set-up - cruising down Southend pier on the pull (if the sun is shining).

 

[PerryGunn]

I think he'll be okay with this set-up - cruising down Southend pier on the pull (if the sun is shining).

OG, I hope you're not alluding to any knicker-elastic loosening effect that may be caused by being in possession of parts that are well above average dimensions? :wink:

 

[ga41]

Just to be annoying, Stoptech, a very reputable performance brakes manufacturer offers many complete kits (front and rear combined) with same sized discs all around. My Z4M kit is 6 piston front and 4 piston rear with 355mm discs on both axles....

The only decent photo of mine showing both:

 

[DPG]

Poor taste.

 

[dans6490]

Johnny, I have a set of these brakes in my research lab and here are my conclusions. The red paint used contains a little known carcinogen that if inhaled can go unnoticed for years. IMO, I would seriously re-consider fitting these brakes (even though you have bought them). Now, if you were to travel at exactly 52mph in a southerly direction and a southwesterly crosswind was to hit your front brakes whilst your window was exactly a quarter of the way down, you will inhale enough of this carcinogen to kill you in the next 50 years. Think of your family and friends before going ahead with such a stupid act.

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

Poor taste.

+1
If you think this is amusing then you need help :thumbsdown:

 

[aquazi]

Wtf...10 pages of utter irrelevance!

JE car will drive so slow with the unsprung weight on his 2.0 wont go anywhere near fast enough where brake balance matters.

He's buying them for looks... So they are perfect for him.

Now get them fitted

 

[GaryT]

I got moderated, oh well i guess it wasn't very PC

 

[GuidoK]

Nictrix, I am neither defending or criticising his decision, I will say that I think upgrading his brakes before increasing the power is a good thing, but have insufficient knowledge to say whether whats purchased is suitable.

So you're pretty much playing captain obvious.

I see a lot of speculation on bias, some people even seem sure that JE will have a bias problem......, but I hardly see anybody who actually have a bbk (front&rear) on their z4. Hardly anybody with hands on experience with the z4..... (just saying... :roll: )

ga41 has bbk all around on his z4m. Maybe beedub has? You all experienced huge bias problems after fitting? I havent.
And even if so.... its the first thing you test (you seek a piece of quiet road....), you feel with the abs where it locks up first. If the rear locks up first, that can mostly be very easily corrected with a less agressive pad at the rear or a more agressive pad at the front. It usually is that simple (and often says so in the manual....). I'm sure that the shop who'll fit the brakes will take it for a test drive and test the brakes. Not only for the bias, but also to see if everything else is ok (correctly bled the system etc)

Also I only see these discussions when people fitting brakes. Nobody starts these discussions when fitting different tyres/wider tyres... or coilovers/lowering their car....
That also has influence on grip and thus bias.... (someone already said that it's the tyres in the end that stop the car)

JE car will drive so slow with the unsprung weight on his 2.0 wont go anywhere near fast enough where brake balance matters.

It will matter if he has to make an emergency stop, although the ABS will correct a lot (and you can't switch that off)