S54 rod bearing
- Thread starter Vanne
- Start date
I disagree. I've owned my S54 Z3MC from just 3,600 miles and it was serviced as per the on board service indicator with extra oil changes and it was always warmed up at 3krpm until oil gauge moved up to around 70degs and it went bang at 31, 111miles. Personally, I don't think the bearing shells tell the whole story.AndyBeech said:Lol, true that (although I still believe that's down to incorrect oil level/change intervals/valve clearances than being plain unlucky, just my opinion though)
my oil analysis is looking really good but the engine is at low miles....
ill keep a close eye and pull at any sign of additional lead readings. Oil pressure is very good, and the engine is silent. i look forward to opening the engine after a decent mile marker to see how it looks with the addition stress of the blower. As mentioned above with the amount of investment in the car, i refuse to leave any stone unturned. If theirs a doubt, ill strip it and upgrade it. Same with all the common s54 issues. As of now she's in rude health but.... as you'd expect from 12,200 miles. ( touches wood)
These cars come with potential bills I'm afraid! As with all performance vehicles.
ill keep a close eye and pull at any sign of additional lead readings. Oil pressure is very good, and the engine is silent. i look forward to opening the engine after a decent mile marker to see how it looks with the addition stress of the blower. As mentioned above with the amount of investment in the car, i refuse to leave any stone unturned. If theirs a doubt, ill strip it and upgrade it. Same with all the common s54 issues. As of now she's in rude health but.... as you'd expect from 12,200 miles. ( touches wood)
These cars come with potential bills I'm afraid! As with all performance vehicles.
exdos said:I disagree. I've owned my S54 Z3MC from just 3,600 miles and it was serviced as per the on board service indicator with extra oil changes and it was always warmed up at 3krpm until oil gauge moved up to around 70degs and it went bang at 31, 111miles. Personally, I don't think the bearing shells tell the whole story.AndyBeech said:Lol, true that (although I still believe that's down to incorrect oil level/change intervals/valve clearances than being plain unlucky, just my opinion though
I'm talking about the cam/follower failure, not bearing shells.
In any case you had the old bearing shells/rod failure that was part of a BMW recall back in the day wasn't it? Also, I doubt it matters but normal operating temp for the oil on an S54 is 80-85c+ according to DIS and TIS I believe. I doubt you did, but I would consider 70degs oil temp to still be on the cooler side for really giving it some. Having said that it seems 100k is well worth a check of some description
What is the experience of other supercharged S54s you've seen on the forums? It would be far too expensive to keep opening the bottom end to have a look, because that would also be a BS replacement job in itself. Whilst your car remains in your ownership, it'll be at least another 15 years before you need to replace at 30k. :wink:Beedub said:
exdos said:What is the experience of other supercharged S54s you've seen on the forums? It would be far too expensive to keep opening the bottom end to have a look, because that would also be a BS replacement job in itself. Whilst your car remains in your ownership, it'll be at least another 15 years before you need to replace at 30k. :wink:Beedub said:
lol my usage my be low but times are changing over here! my son will be finally travelling in the car with me next year which will mean much more usage! i expect next year to see the most road miles since I've owned the car.
also i wouldnt crack the engine at regular intervals, ill keep an eye on the oil reports and see wha comes up.... they will at least give me a good indicator of when to get things moving! or opened ! lol.
the car is going to bristol for its service this year, i fancied a further drive and also have 2 more track days left in october and one in november weather dependant .
Beedub said:exdos said:What is the experience of other supercharged S54s you've seen on the forums? It would be far too expensive to keep opening the bottom end to have a look, because that would also be a BS replacement job in itself. Whilst your car remains in your ownership, it'll be at least another 15 years before you need to replace at 30k. :wink:Beedub said:
lol my usage my be low but times are changing over here! my son will be finally travelling in the car with me next year which will mean much more usage! i expect next year to see the most road miles since I've owned the car.
also i wouldnt crack the engine at regular intervals, ill keep an eye on the oil reports and see wha comes up.... they will at least give me a good indicator of when to get things moving! or opened ! lol.
the car is going to bristol for its service this year, i fancied a further drive and also have 2 more track days left in october and one in novegebr water dependant .
If your using Redish in Bristol Beedub your in excellent hands mate, good choice.
I see.AndyBeech said:
BMW never included the Z3MC/R in the recall because it claimed that restricting the engine to 7600rpm would prevent bearing shell failure! That probably reduced the incidence but it certainly didn't prevent a significant number of failures.
Once the oil temp gets to 70degs, I don't suddenly give it full throttle, just start to use more than 3krpm which then gets the oil up to working temperature.
AndyBeech said:Beedub said:exdos said:What is the experience of other supercharged S54s you've seen on the forums? It would be far too expensive to keep opening the bottom end to have a look, because that would also be a BS replacement job in itself. Whilst your car remains in your ownership, it'll be at least another 15 years before you need to replace at 30k. :wink:
lol my usage my be low but times are changing over here! my son will be finally travelling in the car with me next year which will mean much more usage! i expect next year to see the most road miles since I've owned the car.
also i wouldnt crack the engine at regular intervals, ill keep an eye on the oil reports and see wha comes up.... they will at least give me a good indicator of when to get things moving! or opened ! lol.
the car is going to bristol for its service this year, i fancied a further drive and also have 2 more track days left in october and one in novegebr water dependant .
If your using Redish in Bristol Beedub your in excellent hands mate, good choice.
yes i am, decided to try somewhere different and i like the 5 hour round trip idea
the car could do with a good motorway trip!Beedub said:
Who do you use for your oil analysis and what is the cost roughly?
LostBoy_84 said:
i use blackstone in the USA and it costs me around 90 quid per sample, you get a detailed report. my last report showed all good, ill get another sample when the service happens to see what this oil shows.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/333001-my-blackstone-lab-oil-analysis-sign-things-come.html
Beedub said:
Thanks, is there nowhere in the UK that does it? I would have thought there would be.
exdos said:
I think Vanne's bearings show both sign of wear and cavitation erosion.
This is an interesting page with tell tale pictures of different kind of wear and damage to bearing shells:
http://162.74.99.105/Automotive_Systems/Products/Bearing%20Products/Bearing%20Damage%20rev.aspx
Cavitation erosion always begins at spots in the middle, like this:
Size and shape of spots can differ, as rpm range, oil viscocity, pressure, oil channel size etc vary, but it always take place at specific points where the oil channel is present. So always in the middle, and mostly at one specific spot where the conditions are so (movement vector, etc etc) where a cavitation starts over and over again eventually creating a bigger and bigger deep spot in the bearing surface.
And imho all S50, S54, S65 and S85 engine rodbearings get this wear pattern sooner or later, but it is obviously mileage dependant and drive dependant.
For example here are rodbearings, from an S50 (z3m), changed at 80k kilometers, from a guy who I know is very subtle with his car and a cautious driver (an elderly man):
And these look fine. No sign of cavitation (or at least hardly), only some minor wear (the small scuffing lines in line with the rotating movement of the crank). But this is only 80dkm (less than 50k miles), and a very well kept car.
These are bearings from someone I know (again z3m s50), a bit more aggressive driving, but still no trackdays etc, and still very sensible with his car. Always heat up the car before going above 3k rpm etc etc. But now changed at 137dkm (85k miles):
Already signs of early cavitation corrosion. The highlighted spots in the middle.
Here another set of bearings, randomly picked for the internet (from an e46 m3), and there are hundreds of pictures like this:
All with the tell tale sign of wear spots that originate in the middle and grow and grow. Even the larger spots, you can see that they have a distict deep spot on the middle.
And also Vanne's bearingshells have those signs:
Of course high mileage, so the spots get bigger and bigger and normal wear also helps wearing away the lubricating lead layers obviously.
If it was normal wear it would be a fairly consistent wearspot (consistant in depth) over the width of the shell, and over a large part of the circumsize of the shell.
Your destroyed bearing is obviously a spun bearing. why and how evidence is destroyed when the bearing started to spin
.You're lucky (or was alert enough) that the pistonrod didn't break and put a hole in the block
It happens.Some bearings show indeed more of a coarse surface in the middle cavitation spots whereas others are more smooth. That might be a difference in how severe the cavitation is. For example does it occur on a track under very harsh conditions, or slowly over time bit by bit but on higher miles. Maybe even the type of oil can play a part in that.
The only other type of wear that can affect the centre is severe overheating. But overheating should show small spots where melting starts. Maybe your bearings in the picture could have shown some overheating, but it's hard to see.
I dont have a s50/s54 and no worn bearings (not that I know of), but if I would encounter that, the first thing I would do is plastigauge the spots, to see how much of the toplayer is actually worn away. To get an idea of how much wear is actually taken place.
But like I said, a lot of specialist that deal with s50/s54 advise to replace the rodbearings at 80dkm/60k miles, and that makes sense imho. Even if it is a fairly expensive fix. But that's the price you have to pay for an engine with motorsport pedigree. If you get a AJP8 (TVR) you're expected to completely rebuild every 15k miles :lol:
Who noticed the difference between s50 bearing shells and s54 bearing shells?
^^^^ WHS.
But how does the bearing shell spinning inside the con rod lead to the catastrophic failure in my photo? Is evidence of cavitation on the surface of the bearing shell a definite prerequisite for a bearing shell to spin or can an unblemished bearing shell suddenly suffer a catastrophic failure? I'm just trying to understand the precise order of events that lead up to the destruction and wondering what relationship exists between the levels of various metals in oil analysis and the likelihood of impending failure.
But how does the bearing shell spinning inside the con rod lead to the catastrophic failure in my photo? Is evidence of cavitation on the surface of the bearing shell a definite prerequisite for a bearing shell to spin or can an unblemished bearing shell suddenly suffer a catastrophic failure? I'm just trying to understand the precise order of events that lead up to the destruction and wondering what relationship exists between the levels of various metals in oil analysis and the likelihood of impending failure.
Im glad people are fairly talking sense instead of arguing over an item that is most certainly an issue. The simple fact is £1500 is cheaper than a whole engine rebuild and if you get to 80-100k its worth the time and money to sort for piece of mind if the car is a long termer.