Road and Track brake pad recommendations

[JSz4]

Hi, I do about 5k road miles a year in my 3.0i Z4 and two track days and wondering what single pad would be recommended to use for both as I can't afford separate road and track pads.

I've larger SI discs/calipers at the front, drilled brembo discs, braided lines and TYP200 fluid and been using EBC Bluestuff pads front and rear (DSC off). Bluestuff seem fine on the road from cold but after a few harder laps I get increasing juddering from the front and either have to end the session so they cool or reduce speed by braking earlier and softer.

Can anyone recommend an alternative to EBC Bluestuff for a road legal track capable pad? I generally do 60+ laps in a day as trying to build confidence and experience but finding managing the brake temperature pretty limiting.

Thanks for any advice

 

[brillomaster]

When I tracked my z4 i used pf08 pads. Lasted ages with great bite, not sure if theyre technically road legal or not, not that an mot tester checks anything other than pad thickness.

Also w.r.t. temps, have you tried taking out the front foglights? Gain a useful bit of airflow into the front wheel arches that is otherwise lacking.

 

[JSz4]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Looked at the Ferodo DS2500s too however as I do most of my miles on the road really need pads that are road legal but know that'll really limit options.

Cheers, no I haven't removed the fog lights yet, seen a few custom brake duct kits and was going to have a try at improving the airflow after this trackday as the front brakes overheating seems a constant issue as soon as I start using the brakes a bit harder.

 

[JSz4]

Front pads have 9mm left (15mm new), Rears 7mm left (12mm new) so may wait until after Castle Combe in Aug to research options and replace.

EBC state 'Once the friction is half worn the wear rate increases significantly and track fade can increase'. Anyone experienced this?

 

[brillomaster]

I don't heed the advice myself (I wait for the horrific scraping noise before I replace pads normally... and discs too oops) but yes the theory is sound. The brake pad material insulates the calipers and fluid, so less brake pad, more heat transferred to the fluid, more likely to get a soft pedal.

But cooling and fresh, high temp fluid helps a lot.

But yeah, I'd do one more day on those pads at least.

And then, I'd buy some new pads ready to swap in when the horrible scraping starts... but not before, I like getting my moneys worth!

 

[mmm-five]

Front pads have 9mm left (15mm new), Rears 7mm left (12mm new) so may wait until after Castle Combe in Aug to research options and replace.

EBC state 'Once the friction is half worn the wear rate increases significantly and track fade can increase'. Anyone experienced this?

The only pad ‘failure’ I’ve had on the Z4MC was when a NSF Yellowstuff pad disintegrated braking down into Hislops/Knickerbook at Oulton Park.

Fortunately the backing plate (and other pads) provided enough friction to safely navigate the escape route…and the backing plate fell out when I came to a stop in the pits.

Demon Tweeks isn’t far, so I was back on for the last hour of the day

This was with a pad that probably had just over 50% of its material left, and I’d done maybe 100 miles on them that day. Moved to Bluestuff NDX after that, and ultimately settled on Pagid RS29 when I went over to the 4-pot Porsche Brembo callipers…and I know there are probably equally good pads at a fraction of the RS29 pads…but I like the cold/hot feel of the RS29s.

 

[Dubbedown]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Looked at the Ferodo DS2500s too however as I do most of my miles on the road really need pads that are road legal but know that'll really limit options.

Cheers, no I haven't removed the fog lights yet, seen a few custom brake duct kits and was going to have a try at improving the airflow after this trackday as the front brakes overheating seems a constant issue as soon as I start using the brakes a bit harder.

DS2500 is good dual duty pad but you will have fade issues for any tracks with long straights and deep braking.

Why not just get a dedicated pad and swap them out before each event?

 

[JSz4]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Looked at the Ferodo DS2500s too however as I do most of my miles on the road really need pads that are road legal but know that'll really limit options.

Cheers, no I haven't removed the fog lights yet, seen a few custom brake duct kits and was going to have a try at improving the airflow after this trackday as the front brakes overheating seems a constant issue as soon as I start using the brakes a bit harder.

DS2500 is good dual duty pad but you will have fade issues for any tracks with long straights and deep braking.

Why not just get a dedicated pad and swap them out before each event?

Thanks for replies, I thought DS2500 weren't road legal but will do some research.

I replaced the brake fluid 2 years ago with ATE TYP200 two years ago, how regularly is it sensible to renew, once a year? I haven't done many road miles but 4 track days since then.

I was hoping to manage cost by having one pad capable of a bit of road and track but maybe that's not possible

 

[Dubbedown]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Looked at the Ferodo DS2500s too however as I do most of my miles on the road really need pads that are road legal but know that'll really limit options.

Cheers, no I haven't removed the fog lights yet, seen a few custom brake duct kits and was going to have a try at improving the airflow after this trackday as the front brakes overheating seems a constant issue as soon as I start using the brakes a bit harder.

DS2500 is good dual duty pad but you will have fade issues for any tracks with long straights and deep braking.

Why not just get a dedicated pad and swap them out before each event?

Thanks for replies, I thought DS2500 weren't road legal but will do some research.

I replaced the brake fluid 2 years ago with ATE TYP200 two years ago, how regularly is it sensible to renew, once a year? I haven't done many road miles but 4 track days since then.

I was hoping to manage cost by having one pad capable of a bit of road and track but maybe that's not possible

Sorry I don’t know what constitutes as ‘road legal’ across the pond. But in general there really is no good dual duty pad once you start pushing it hard on track.

 

[mmm-five]

You’ll find it difficult to get road legal (ECE R90) pads that are suitable for track work, as the regs stipulate +/- 15% of the OEM fitment that a track pad might exceed.

Plus for every different OE application, that same aftermarket pad would have to be tested/certified for that fitment. So, for example, a pad that’s fits in the same calliper on an Porsche 911 and a BMW 320D with big brakes…but the two manufacturers have different OE pad specs for that car’s usage, would require the aftermarket pad to have two compounds for both cars to pass ECE R90…so they don’t bother in most cases, and leave the decision up to the driver. After all it’s not tested at an MOT, and would take a serious accident for insurance/police to check the pads themselves.

If only R90 stipulated only a minimum, rather than a range, then a lot of track pads would be fine.

ECE R90 for brake pads and shoes comprises of the following vehicle tests:

• R13H (the legal tests used to approve new vehicle braking systems)
• cold performance
• high speed performance
• Fade test
• Parking brake test (rear pads only)
• Cold performance comparison With OE product (equivalence within 15% required)
• Speed performance tests – 65/135 kph ( < 15% variation required

 

[damocell]

Hhmmmm, seems strange. I've run bluestuff on my 3.0si on 4 trackdays now front and rear without issue. The only problem has been them wearing quite quickly as they are getting too hot and running just outside their temp range.

The only difference is, I do have front cooling ducts which keep the caliper temps down. However, we are still seeing disc temps of over 400 degrees following a cool down lap. Never experienced juddering though. Even when I ran them on my M3.

You'll struggle to find a better dual duty pad than bluestuff in my opinion. DS2500 are crap on track for example. Another option would be to run something more track focussed like RP-X for trackdays and swap back to a road pad for road duties. RP-X are simply amazing on track, but unbearable on the road. This is what I'm doing at the moment.

This would be a great question to ask in the Z4 Trackday group on Facebook, loads of info on pad types and opinions in there https://www.facebook.com/groups/520863040768702/

 

[damocell]

EBC state 'Once the friction is half worn the wear rate increases significantly and track fade can increase'. Anyone experienced this?

Yes, massively. I wore through a rear set of EBC Bluestuff in two track days. DSC off for both events. Admittedly, one was Bedford which is very hard on brakes and I was lapping quickly for most of the day but I was very surprised at the wear rate.

I also run Type200 ATE fluid as you do, not had issues with this fluid in multiple cars I've run on track.

 

[JSz4]

EBC state 'Once the friction is half worn the wear rate increases significantly and track fade can increase'. Anyone experienced this?

Yes, massively. I wore through a rear set of EBC Bluestuff in two track days. DSC off for both events. Admittedly, one was Bedford which is very hard on brakes and I was lapping quickly for most of the day but I was very surprised at the wear rate.

I also run Type200 ATE fluid as you do, not had issues with this fluid in multiple cars I've run on track.

Sorry missed reply but really useful, will check out the FB page.

Think I'll probably stick with Bluestuff and try and improve the front cooling as can't really justify spending a lot on track specific pads given only do a couple of track days a year and need pads that are useable/legal on road all year round.

1) How often do you change your Type200 ATE brake fluid? Last changed mine 2yrs/10k miles/4 track days ago.

2) The first trackday I did with it 3yrs ago I just had fade but no juddering. The next track day someone in front braked almost to a stop so I had to brake very hard to avoid colliding triggering ABS in dry, immediately afterwards the front brakes juddered after time I used them. Since then every track day they don't but judder until they get hot/I use them harder. I've replaced all discs and pads but no difference, any idea what could be cause?

Thanks

 

[damocell]

Sorry missed reply but really useful, will check out the FB page.

Think I'll probably stick with Bluestuff and try and improve the front cooling as can't really justify spending a lot on track specific pads given only do a couple of track days a year and need pads that are useable/legal on road all year round.

1) How often do you change your Type200 ATE brake fluid? Last changed mine 2yrs/10k miles/4 track days ago.

2) The first trackday I did with it 3yrs ago I just had fade but no juddering. The next track day someone in front braked almost to a stop so I had to brake very hard to avoid colliding triggering ABS in dry, immediately afterwards the front brakes juddered after time I used them. Since then every track day they don't but judder until they get hot/I use them harder. I've replaced all discs and pads but no difference, any idea what could be cause?

Thanks

I tend to change my brake fluid once a year but every 2 years should be ok as type200 lasts quite well I believe.

If you've changed the discs/pads and it is still doing it, I'd look elsewhere. I'd start by checking the bushes at the front. On the E9x chassis the front thrust bush can cause juddering once worn. Maybe check out the front wishbone rear bush and see what condition those are in.

 

[JSz4]

Sorry missed reply but really useful, will check out the FB page.

Think I'll probably stick with Bluestuff and try and improve the front cooling as can't really justify spending a lot on track specific pads given only do a couple of track days a year and need pads that are useable/legal on road all year round.

1) How often do you change your Type200 ATE brake fluid? Last changed mine 2yrs/10k miles/4 track days ago.

2) The first trackday I did with it 3yrs ago I just had fade but no juddering. The next track day someone in front braked almost to a stop so I had to brake very hard to avoid colliding triggering ABS in dry, immediately afterwards the front brakes juddered after time I used them. Since then every track day they don't but judder until they get hot/I use them harder. I've replaced all discs and pads but no difference, any idea what could be cause?

Thanks

I tend to change my brake fluid once a year but every 2 years should be ok as type200 lasts quite well I believe.

If you've changed the discs/pads and it is still doing it, I'd look elsewhere. I'd start by checking the bushes at the front. On the E9x chassis the front thrust bush can cause juddering once worn. Maybe check out the front wishbone rear bush and see what condition those are in.

Thanks that's reassuring re fluid. Front and Rear Bluestuff pads have 7mm left so hoping that'll be enough for Castle Combe then will replace them and renew fluid.

Cheers, I had new track rods fitted last year and alignment so rearward front wishbone bushes should of been checked but will have another look. Could a dragging caliper cause juddering when hot/hard braking? One side is dragging a fraction so replacing it tomorrow.

 

[Andy_017]

I had the juddering issue when my brakes were hot on an e46 track car and it was a sticking caliper. As the heat increases the caliper would bind on more and more.