Removal of Statues

[TitanTim]

If it's about slavery and descimination then shouldn't there be petitions to raise the concentration museums to the ground in Europe, after all its glorifying Nazism isn't it :roll:

Far as I'm concerned it's history which should be kept alive.

Tim.

 

[scootr]

If it's about slavery and descimination then shouldn't there be petitions to raise the concentration museums to the ground in Europe, after all its glorifying Nazism isn't it :roll:

Far as I'm concerned it's history which should be kept alive.

Tim.

Without history what are you going to tell the children? Long ago there were bad people but we erased their memory and we're all good now

 

[oldgitdave]

There is racism in this country and in my opinion the frustration with that and anger at an establishment that has been slow to act has been a major contributor to the whole statue thing and the protests. It might make people angry to see statues of well known historical figures being pulled down and defaced but imagine how angry and frustrated you might be if you or your family were fighting the disadvantages that the system imposes on you just because of the colour of your skin. Disadvantages that have operated for decades. I don't excuse the acts of vandalism but I can understand them.

If you accept that we are all the same then there is no reason why parts of the BAME population should have worse career prospects, be more criminalised, have worse health outcomes, be more likely to be stopped by police, be more likely to be unemployed etc etc. The reason for these things is that there is systemic racism at play and that they don't start their lives from a level playing field. They are not treated as equals. I'm sure none of us would regard ourselves as racist but until we start to cast a light on, examine and correct the causes of the disparities that are out there we won't truly be able to say we have rid ourselves of the scourge of racism. I don't buy the argument that says the reason for their position is that they see themselves as victims and everything would be fine if only they raised their game and stopped complaining.

I'm genuinely curious on this perspective. It's very easy to just say "There is racism in this country"....but I struggle to really nail down any examples of where racist behaviour is in play?

School
Where are the schools, colleges or University that exclude people based on their skin colour? I accept that family money or where you live impacts decision, but that isn't racism....that's a different problem.

Crime
My best mate works on Trident in the Met Police, his response to being more likely to be stopped is very simple. In certain parts of London, young black males disproportionally commit more crime than other races....it might be hard to want to accept that, but it's a simple truth. If a street crime has been committed it is statistically more likely to be a black male, whereas a burglary tends to committed be a white male. The police only go with what they have to go on.

Jobs
If there are better-qualified candidates for the role, then that's life. I've worked in the technology marketing industry for 20 years and not once have I heard or seen anything that would have meant a person was being excluded from anything because of their skin colour. It simply doesn't happen.

The media hype this up into such an issue it's so frustrating. Britain is the most liberal, diverse and open country in the world.....how anyone thinks the British people are racist is utterly clueless IMO.

Totally agree :happyclap:
Anyway....

 

[SiJar]

Angelus666 you have hit the nail on the head - you are spot on. What has really disappointed me is that those who pulled down the statue in Bristol have not been arrested and charged. Let’s look at all the smart phones recording everything and the police always video individuals at marches so they are easily identifiable! If that had been a right wing group then those responsible would have been arrested and put in front of the judge and jury the following day. This really is double standards and if the police don’t get a grip then this is in danger of boiling over and turning really nasty, which no one wants to see.

 

[Vornwend]

There is racism in this country and in my opinion the frustration with that and anger at an establishment that has been slow to act has been a major contributor to the whole statue thing and the protests. It might make people angry to see statues of well known historical figures being pulled down and defaced but imagine how angry and frustrated you might be if you or your family were fighting the disadvantages that the system imposes on you just because of the colour of your skin. Disadvantages that have operated for decades. I don't excuse the acts of vandalism but I can understand them.

If you accept that we are all the same then there is no reason why parts of the BAME population should have worse career prospects, be more criminalised, have worse health outcomes, be more likely to be stopped by police, be more likely to be unemployed etc etc. The reason for these things is that there is systemic racism at play and that they don't start their lives from a level playing field. They are not treated as equals. I'm sure none of us would regard ourselves as racist but until we start to cast a light on, examine and correct the causes of the disparities that are out there we won't truly be able to say we have rid ourselves of the scourge of racism. I don't buy the argument that says the reason for their position is that they see themselves as victims and everything would be fine if only they raised their game and stopped complaining.

I'm genuinely curious on this perspective. It's very easy to just say "There is racism in this country"....but I struggle to really nail down any examples of where racist behaviour is in play?

School
Where are the schools, colleges or University that exclude people based on their skin colour? I accept that family money or where you live impacts decision, but that isn't racism....that's a different problem.

Crime
My best mate works on Trident in the Met Police, his response to being more likely to be stopped is very simple. In certain parts of London, young black males disproportionally commit more crime than other races....it might be hard to want to accept that, but it's a simple truth. If a street crime has been committed it is statistically more likely to be a black male, whereas a burglary tends to committed be a white male. The police only go with what they have to go on.

Jobs
If there are better-qualified candidates for the role, then that's life. I've worked in the technology marketing industry for 20 years and not once have I heard or seen anything that would have meant a person was being excluded from anything because of their skin colour. It simply doesn't happen.

The media hype this up into such an issue it's so frustrating. Britain is the most liberal, diverse and open country in the world.....how anyone thinks the British people are racist is utterly clueless IMO.

If you are genuinely curious then the internet is awash with evidence and serious research that demonstrates there is systemic and institutional racism in the UK across all the areas I mentioned. I'm not going to do that for you but here is just one report - commissioned by Theresa May's government in October 2017 . Like you I have never encountered overt racism at work but that does not mean it does not exist in the wider economy does it? Anybody who thinks otherwise is uninformed IMO, either that or in denial.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-disparity-audit

 

[Angelus666]

You said "there is racism in this country" so it should be very easy to prove that viewpoint. Post some links to undisputable racism that points systematic racism in Britain. My view is that there isn't on any racism on a systematic level. People who say there is, are looking for an excuse for other failings. That report you linked to looks at race disparity, not racism. If segments of society do not promote family unity, education, anti-criminal behaviour, hard work, community spirit....then you will have those same people underachieve and create the cycle that perpetuates again and again. It is not racism that creates this environment.

I'm happy to be corrected if there is genuine evidence.

 

[SiJar]

This country is extremely tolerant and probably more so than any other country in the world. This is proven by the amount of immigrants wanting to settle in this country after travelling half way around the world, so that’s pretty strong evidence in my mind that people know that racism is not that active in this country! I’m not saying it couldn’t be better, however these riots, vandalism and demonstrations are completely out of order.

 

[Smartbear]

This country is extremely tolerant and probably more so than any other country in the world. This is proven by the amount of immigrants wanting to settle in this country after travelling half way around the world, so that’s pretty strong evidence in my mind that people know that racism is not that active in this country! I’m not saying it couldn’t be better, however these riots, vandalism and demonstrations are completely out of order.

I think money has a lot to do with it, why else would they leapfrog France in large numbers (where they are safe) In order to get to the UK? :?
Rob

 

[enuff_zed]

I've started a campaign for 'Old Lives Matter'. After all not everyone makes it this far.
Just off to knock down the statue of Peter Pan.

 

[Crazy Harry]

I've started a campaign for 'Old Lives Matter'. After all not everyone makes it this far.
Just off to knock down the statue of Peter Pan.

... best ring the 'tractor boys' to get a cordon round Grandma; Vera and the twins.

and for those of you not in East Anglia

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g190725-d1747783-Reviews-The_Giles_Statue-Ipswich_Suffolk_East_Anglia_England.html

 

[enuff_zed]

I've started a campaign for 'Old Lives Matter'. After all not everyone makes it this far.
Just off to knock down the statue of Peter Pan.

... best ring the 'tractor boys' to get a cordon round Grandma; Vera and the twins.

and for those of you not in East Anglia

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g190725-d1747783-Reviews-The_Giles_Statue-Ipswich_Suffolk_East_Anglia_England.html

That brings back memories. Used to sit at my Gran's house and read all the old Giles annuals. Wonder where they went? Be worth a bit now. She had the whole set.

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

 

[buzyg]

 

[maxman]

 

[exdos]

In my opinion, Political Correctness dreamt up by the Left has created the situation in which we no longer have "free speech" so that we can't discuss any of the "....isms" without being accused of pursuing "hate crime" and being labelled as some kind of "...ist".

For those who are happy to vandalise our public monuments, I would like to ask them which persons they think should be memorialised to replace the voids they leave behind? Then let's have the discussions without the stranglehold of political correctness so that we can examine the lives and thoughts of those they think are superior beings.

 

[BeeEmm]

For those who are happy to vandalise our public monuments, I would like to ask them which persons they think should be memorialised to replace the voids they leave behind?

I cannot think of many people that we erect monuments to honour, nowadays, but I agree it is a drastic way to remove bird s**t from a statue of someone I hadn't heard of until they toppled it and threw it into the water.

 

[pvr]

It is going to be a complicated coffee run when the face to face meetings start again, you can't have a rota with half the people on it anymore as it might be perceived as offensive by anyone walking past a meeting room :|

 

[enuff_zed]

It is going to be a complicated coffee run when the face to face meetings start again, you can't have a rota with half the people on it anymore as it might be perceived as offensive by anyone walking past a meeting room :|

To say nothing of how you drink your coffee! Are we allowed to add milk anymore??

 

[sp3ctre]

 

[MrPT]

There is racism in this country and in my opinion the frustration with that and anger at an establishment that has been slow to act has been a major contributor to the whole statue thing and the protests. It might make people angry to see statues of well known historical figures being pulled down and defaced but imagine how angry and frustrated you might be if you or your family were fighting the disadvantages that the system imposes on you just because of the colour of your skin. Disadvantages that have operated for decades. I don't excuse the acts of vandalism but I can understand them.

If you accept that we are all the same then there is no reason why parts of the BAME population should have worse career prospects, be more criminalised, have worse health outcomes, be more likely to be stopped by police, be more likely to be unemployed etc etc. The reason for these things is that there is systemic racism at play and that they don't start their lives from a level playing field. They are not treated as equals. I'm sure none of us would regard ourselves as racist but until we start to cast a light on, examine and correct the causes of the disparities that are out there we won't truly be able to say we have rid ourselves of the scourge of racism. I don't buy the argument that says the reason for their position is that they see themselves as victims and everything would be fine if only they raised their game and stopped complaining.

Well said.

I'm feeling a bit ashamed that I've only just revisited this thread and seen that you have you have written something along the lines of what I was hoping to post earlier, but didn't quite muster up the ar-sed-ness to do so as it might create a bit of hassle. Speaking up for others when one might previously have kept one's trap shut is exactly what is needed right now and I'm sorry that I hesitated.

I understand the background to the majority viewpoint on here, but something needs to change. Call it a tweak/re-calibration/whatever. I've been shocked to learn that basically all of my black friends and colleagues spend a significant proportion of their existence putting up with unnecessary, race-related hassle. It's a small but ever-present proportion of their cognitive load that they usually just "suck up". I suspect that most have always been fairly open about this; perhaps it's taken recent events to make me actually listen to them? And I'm not talking about them being victims of overt, racial abuse here, which is rare in the UK and usually perpetrated by morons (which I imagine can often make it easier to get your head around).

I mean that if they go for a job in a white-dominated place of work and don't get it, they often feel it necessary to go through the emotional rigmarole of trying to figure out whether they were unsuccessful based on merit or systemic bias against the way that they look. They do this not because they are paranoid, but because they are well-educated and intellectually curious, and like most of us would rather leave such a setback with some constructive feedback to act upon.

If they get stopped randomly by police while driving through London; yes, it's true that the stats show lots of cars are stolen by people that look like them, but it's galling, nevertheless, to feel the weight of this prejudgement, first hand. It's one example of many small, seemingly insignificant forms of prejudice and systemic bias that I have no experience of (and hopefully never will) and listening to them talk about these types of events, their voices shaking, is very difficult because I see they are just like me in nearly all respects yet I have almost no ability to empathise with their situation. These are sometimes successful businessmen and women in their 40s or 50s who in the past I would have thought immune to such things, but this is clearly not the case, even when faced with incidents or slurs that I might previously have considered to be trivial.

I've heard a lot of people saying things recently like "Well if you topple one statue of someone connected to racism, where do you draw the line? What about the pyramids etc...?". Outstanding lolz, no doubt, but it does feel like the line needs to be redrawn. The toppling of a couple of statues is the manifestation of anger that has been bubbling under the surface of a far larger part of our society than we'd like to think, perhaps only perpetrated by those ill-equipped to express themselves via less disruptive means. It doesn't mean that lots more statues need to fall, it means that things aren't right at the moment, people need to pay attention to what is happening and there needs to be some kind of societal adjustment to account for it.