Removal of Statues

[enuff_zed]

I thought the whole point of a pyramid was that it is impossible to topple?

 

[Smartbear]

It’s embarrassing to see our leaders bullied into appeasing the shouty crowds of the “offended” righteous, just heard the Fawlty Towers (don’t mention the war) episode has been withdrawn & hastily airbrushed from history.
It’s as though our memories are playing tricks on us & those things never happened :thumbsdown:

Rob

 

[enuff_zed]

just heard the Fawlty Towers (don’t mention the war) episode has been withdrawn & hastily airbrushed from history.

I watched that once..................but I think I got away with it!

 

[Smartbear]

just heard the Fawlty Towers (don’t mention the war) episode has been withdrawn & hastily airbrushed from history.

I watched that once..................but I think I got away with it!

Best keep that to yourself Martin, or they may topple you
Rob

 

[enuff_zed]

just heard the Fawlty Towers (don’t mention the war) episode has been withdrawn & hastily airbrushed from history.

I watched that once..................but I think I got away with it!

Best keep that to yourself Martin, or they may topple you
Rob

Never mind. Still got my box set of 'It ain't half hot Mum!'

 

[Smartbear]

I watched that once..................but I think I got away with it!

Best keep that to yourself Martin, or they may topple you
Rob

Never mind. Still got my box set of 'It ain't half hot Mum!'

That’s it, you’ve set the Indians off now!
Rob

 

[Smartbear]

Best keep that to yourself Martin, or they may topple you
Rob

Never mind. Still got my box set of 'It ain't half hot Mum!'

That’s it, you’ve set the Indians off now! Punkhawallahs have rights too
Rob

 

[enuff_zed]

Punkhawallahs have rights too

They get in a flap about everything!

 

[Chim_lad]

Very honest of you MrPT and very well put.

It's a small but ever-present proportion of their cognitive load that they usually just "suck up". I suspect that most have always been fairly open about this; perhaps it's taken recent events to make me actually listen to them? And I'm not talking about them being victims of overt, racial abuse here, which is rare in the UK and usually perpetrated by morons

I too was reticent to comment. As a ‘BAME’, it is true that whilst we encounter narrow and small mindedness on an occasional basis, it is the small things that chip away at you on a more regular basis and it has got to the point where we cannot and must not allow it to continue. Overt racism gets an overt response but subtle comments get you thinking about why they were said. Whilst there is a small minority of idiots on both sides of the argument, it is a time to make those less aware of the daily struggles we encounter aware of what we experience just to simply get on in life. I’m sure we all have our struggles to get on in life and I ask for no more nor less than than the next person. Judge me simply on who I am not the colour of my skin nor the ‘ethnicity’ and implied judgement of my name.

The similarities to life are uncanny. We’re on this forum despite what we drive in terms of model, colour, engine, spec etc. and are each afforded the respect of fellow Z4 owners despite our differences. We even acknowledge and wave at each other whilst on the road. Why should life be any different?

 

[Smartbear]

Very honest of you MrPT and very well put.

It's a small but ever-present proportion of their cognitive load that they usually just "suck up". I suspect that most have always been fairly open about this; perhaps it's taken recent events to make me actually listen to them? And I'm not talking about them being victims of overt, racial abuse here, which is rare in the UK and usually perpetrated by morons

I too was reticent to comment. As a ‘BAME’, it is true that whilst we encounter narrow and small mindedness on an occasional basis, it is the small things that chip away at you on a more regular basis and it has got to the point where we cannot and must not allow it to continue. Overt racism gets an overt response but subtle comments get you thinking about why they were said. Whilst there is a small minority of idiots on both sides of the argument, it is a time to make those less aware of the daily struggles we encounter aware of what we experience just to simply get on in life. I’m sure we all have our struggles to get on in life and I ask for no more nor less than than the next person. Judge me simply on who I am not the colour of my skin nor the ‘ethnicity’ and implied judgement of my name.

The similarities to life are uncanny. We’re on this forum despite what we drive in terms of model, colour, engine, spec etc. and are each afforded the respect of fellow Z4 owners despite our differences. We even acknowledge and wave at each other whilst on the road. Why should life be any different?

You don’t drive a 2litre do you?
Rob

 

[Angelus666]

There is racism in this country and in my opinion the frustration with that and anger at an establishment that has been slow to act has been a major contributor to the whole statue thing and the protests. It might make people angry to see statues of well known historical figures being pulled down and defaced but imagine how angry and frustrated you might be if you or your family were fighting the disadvantages that the system imposes on you just because of the colour of your skin. Disadvantages that have operated for decades. I don't excuse the acts of vandalism but I can understand them.

If you accept that we are all the same then there is no reason why parts of the BAME population should have worse career prospects, be more criminalised, have worse health outcomes, be more likely to be stopped by police, be more likely to be unemployed etc etc. The reason for these things is that there is systemic racism at play and that they don't start their lives from a level playing field. They are not treated as equals. I'm sure none of us would regard ourselves as racist but until we start to cast a light on, examine and correct the causes of the disparities that are out there we won't truly be able to say we have rid ourselves of the scourge of racism. I don't buy the argument that says the reason for their position is that they see themselves as victims and everything would be fine if only they raised their game and stopped complaining.

Well said.

I'm feeling a bit ashamed that I've only just revisited this thread and seen that you have you have written something along the lines of what I was hoping to post earlier, but didn't quite muster up the ar-sed-ness to do so as it might create a bit of hassle. Speaking up for others when one might previously have kept one's trap shut is exactly what is needed right now and I'm sorry that I hesitated.

I understand the background to the majority viewpoint on here, but something needs to change. Call it a tweak/re-calibration/whatever. I've been shocked to learn that basically all of my black friends and colleagues spend a significant proportion of their existence putting up with unnecessary, race-related hassle. It's a small but ever-present proportion of their cognitive load that they usually just "suck up". I suspect that most have always been fairly open about this; perhaps it's taken recent events to make me actually listen to them? And I'm not talking about them being victims of overt, racial abuse here, which is rare in the UK and usually perpetrated by morons (which I imagine can often make it easier to get your head around).

I mean that if they go for a job in a white-dominated place of work and don't get it, they often feel it necessary to go through the emotional rigmarole of trying to figure out whether they were unsuccessful based on merit or systemic bias against the way that they look. They do this not because they are paranoid, but because they are well-educated and intellectually curious, and like most of us would rather leave such a setback with some constructive feedback to act upon.

If they get stopped randomly by police while driving through London; yes, it's true that the stats show lots of cars are stolen by people that look like them, but it's galling, nevertheless, to feel the weight of this prejudgement, first hand. It's one example of many small, seemingly insignificant forms of prejudice and systemic bias that I have no experience of (and hopefully never will) and listening to them talk about these types of events, their voices shaking, is very difficult because I see they are just like me in nearly all respects yet I have almost no ability to empathise with their situation. These are sometimes successful businessmen and women in their 40s or 50s who in the past I would have thought immune to such things, but this is clearly not the case, even when faced with incidents or slurs that I might previously have considered to be trivial.

I've heard a lot of people saying things recently like "Well if you topple one statue of someone connected to racism, where do you draw the line? What about the pyramids etc...?". Outstanding lolz, no doubt, but it does feel like the line needs to be redrawn. The toppling of a couple of statues is the manifestation of anger that has been bubbling under the surface of a far larger part of our society than we'd like to think, perhaps only perpetrated by those ill-equipped to express themselves via less disruptive means. It doesn't mean that lots more statues need to fall, it means that things aren't right at the moment, people need to pay attention to what is happening and there needs to be some kind of societal adjustment to account for it.

Why is it always the default position of the small subtle things “like going for a job and not getting it” must be because of racism....there are 100 other things it could have been why that person didn’t succeed. It might come as a shock to know all ethnicities don’t always get every job they go for.

What needs to stop is people using excuses and playing the victim as to why they haven’t got what they think they should have. Candance Owens has it absolutely spot on with where racism ranks in the top 100 issues facing black Americans right now.

 

[Crazy Harry]

Nice contribution MrPT - not the sort of thing you'd get on the TV where everything is reduced to a sound bite of one side of a placard. I know that there is change but its slow. Me Mam still bangs on about the map of the world being empire pink when she was at school so its going to take life times to change without some paradigm shift which I fear is just too much for Joe public and the Daily Mail who will no doubt soon be reminding us about positive discrimination to belittle any positive achievements.

What interests me is the why now. Nothing's new and all I can think is its lockdown (and financial uncertainty for many) plus hot weather. I recall - don't know if I'm correct but the Broadwater Farm; Toxteth; Handsworth; Chapeltown; Moss Side riots although triggered by incidents involving the BAME communities was at a time of high unemployment (time on hands and financially tight) and a hot summer.

 

[exdos]

As a ‘BAME’, it is true that whilst we encounter narrow and small mindedness on an occasional basis, it is the small things that chip away at you on a more regular basis and it has got to the point where we cannot and must not allow it to continue.

My ancestors worked in the coal mines for several generations, which was the nearest thing to slavery of the indigenous white British within the UK. A few landowners got very rich off the backs of their fellow countrymen working in those inhospitable, injurious and dangerous conditions, but that's all in the past. We have moved on as a society but many of us still like to visit all those historic houses, parks and monuments that were built from the unfair personal fortunes created by the hard work of the many for the pleasure and privilege of the few, and we accept that life was very different for all previous generations in the past. Whenever I visit any of those historic houses, parks and monuments (and I've visited LOTS of them) I always leave thinking of how hard life must've been in days gone by and am thankful I have never experienced those conditions and nor will they return.

Surely BAME people living in the UK, now, must also be grateful that they live very different lives to any of their ancestors in the past, no matter what their cultural heritage? Vandalism by BAME and White people simply cannot erase the past history of the UK, or anywhere else, and is the first retrograde step towards the most uncivilised behaviour that such people claim is so offensive in our past and is sheer hypocrisy. :thumbsdown:

For every member of the BAME groups now living in the UK, they, or their immediate ancestors, have voluntarily come to live in the UK under their own free will because they consider that life here, despite all its shortcomings for us all, is better than the place they've left behind. So what exactly do BAMEs want? I note that Sri and Gopi Hinduja are in 2nd place in the UK rich list, so there's absolutely nothing holding any of you back other than yourself, which is the same for White people.

 

[Chim_lad]

Very honest of you MrPT and very well put.

It's a small but ever-present proportion of their cognitive load that they usually just "suck up". I suspect that most have always been fairly open about this; perhaps it's taken recent events to make me actually listen to them? And I'm not talking about them being victims of overt, racial abuse here, which is rare in the UK and usually perpetrated by morons

I too was reticent to comment. As a ‘BAME’, it is true that whilst we encounter narrow and small mindedness on an occasional basis, it is the small things that chip away at you on a more regular basis and it has got to the point where we cannot and must not allow it to continue. Overt racism gets an overt response but subtle comments get you thinking about why they were said. Whilst there is a small minority of idiots on both sides of the argument, it is a time to make those less aware of the daily struggles we encounter aware of what we experience just to simply get on in life. I’m sure we all have our struggles to get on in life and I ask for no more nor less than than the next person. Judge me simply on who I am not the colour of my skin nor the ‘ethnicity’ and implied judgement of my name.

The similarities to life are uncanny. We’re on this forum despite what we drive in terms of model, colour, engine, spec etc. and are each afforded the respect of fellow Z4 owners despite our differences. We even acknowledge and wave at each other whilst on the road. Why should life be any different?

You don’t drive a 2litre do you?
Rob

 

[Vornwend]

For every member of the BAME groups now living in the UK, they, or their immediate ancestors, have voluntarily come to live in the UK under their own free will because they consider that life here, despite all its shortcomings for us all, is better than the place they've left behind. So what exactly do BAMEs want? I note that Sri and Gopi Hinduja are in 2nd place in the UK rich list, so there's absolutely nothing holding any of you back other than yourself, which is the same for White people.

So, let me get this right, because someone or their parents or their parents parents chose to come to the UK from a place that was worse they have to accept inequality, just suck it up and stop complaining, be grateful? The only way you can be treated fairly is to be born here and have immediate ancestors here (or white perhaps?). All they want is a level playing field - its as simple and complicated as that.

Select a successful BAME person and then make the enormous leap to say if they can do it you all can to? How about selecting the guy who got overlooked for a promotion because of his skin colour, the guy who didn't even get an interview, the lack of representation at senior levels across all our public and private arenas?

As a nation we have a significantly diverse ethnic mix and we are surely stronger when all of us have the same opportunity to realise their potential unhindered by attitudes that belong in the past.

 

[buzyg]

For every member of the BAME groups now living in the UK, they, or their immediate ancestors, have voluntarily come to live in the UK under their own free will because they consider that life here, despite all its shortcomings for us all, is better than the place they've left behind. So what exactly do BAMEs want? I note that Sri and Gopi Hinduja are in 2nd place in the UK rich list, so there's absolutely nothing holding any of you back other than yourself, which is the same for White people.

So, let me get this right, because someone or their parents or their parents parents chose to come to the UK from a pace that was worse they have to accept inequality, just suck it up and stop complaining, be grateful? The only way you can be treated fairly is to be born here and have immediate ancestors here (or white perhaps?). All they want is a level playing field - its as simple and complicated as that.

Rightly or wrongly that is often how immigration works for the working classes. There is a labour shortage in agriculture right now, due to the seasonal workforce, mostly eastern Europeans, vanishing due to a combination of COVID and BREXIT.

 

[exdos]

So, let me get this right, because someone or their parents or their parents parents chose to come to the UK from a pace that was worse they have to accept inequality, just suck it up and stop complaining, be grateful? The only way you can be treated fairly is to be born here and have immediate ancestors here (or white perhaps?).

Not what I said at all. Anyone wishing to leave one country to go and live in another has plenty of different countries to choose from, so if they pick the UK, they must think this country is the best place for them despite all it's injustices. This country is NOT, nor does it pretend to be, Shangri-La. I'm sure that a good proportion of non-BAME people can also claim they've been overlooked both individually and in the communities in which they live, in their education and career opportunities for a host of reasons. Skin-colour is not the only reason for any unfairness, ask many women the same.

 

[mackharry]

For those who are happy to vandalise our public monuments, I would like to ask them which persons they think should be memorialised to replace the voids they leave behind?

I cannot think of many people that we erect monuments to honour, nowadays, but I agree it is a drastic way to remove bird s**t from a statue of someone I hadn't heard of until they toppled it and threw it into the water.

How about putting an object that we all admire on the plinth rather than a person, say a zed for instance. Obviously a roadie tho, not a coupe, that would be terrible.

 

[exdos]

How about putting an object that we all admire on the plinth rather than a person, say a zed for instance. Obviously a roadie tho, not a coupe, that would be terrible.

As long as it's Phoenix Yellow. No doubt some will complain its the wrong paint.

 

[Vornwend]

So, let me get this right, because someone or their parents or their parents parents chose to come to the UK from a pace that was worse they have to accept inequality, just suck it up and stop complaining, be grateful? The only way you can be treated fairly is to be born here and have immediate ancestors here (or white perhaps?).

Not what I said at all. Anyone wishing to leave one country to go and live in another has plenty of different countries to choose from, so if they pick the UK, they must think this country is the best place for them despite all it's injustices. This country is NOT, nor does it pretend to be, Shangri-La. I'm sure that a good proportion of non-BAME people can also claim they've been overlooked both individually and in the communities in which they live, in their education and career opportunities for a host of reasons. Skin-colour is not the only reason for any unfairness, ask many women the same.

Even if they had a choice and it was the best place for them it does not excuse discrimination - that still remains a problem to be addressed doesn't it?

You are right to say that its not just skin colour. I don't imagine it will ever be possible to remove all forms of discrimination but the more we expose it, increase our awareness of it and work to reduce it the better off we will all be IMO. You don't get the best out of people by discriminating. One of the most powerful lessons I learnt in my career was that if you walk past a problem then that is the same as accepting it. I think there is a problem and I think the protests that flare up are evidence of that (alongside all the hard data). Protest is a catalyst for change - whether that be giving women the vote, abolishing slavery, equal pay, the right to a state education etc etc If a few statues and ancient TV programmes get ditched along the way towards racial equality well then for me that's a tiny price to pay - and I speak as a huge Fawlty Towers fan!!