Porsche...I don't get it

havent had the chance to take proper pictures of the Cayman yet. hopefully this weekend. but heres a few i took when i first got the car using my iphone. http://www.flickr.com/photos/haranb
totally agree what you said about the MC.
 
Even Harris said for the first time he preferred the Boxster to the 911. If the next cayman is priced only a fraction over the Boxster then the 991 just won't make sense, unless as Sars said, you need a 2+2. A Porsche salesman told me that they were already having a terrible time trying to shift 991s.

The new Boxster is very good looking. They've sorted out the push me pull me look.
 
The new Boxter is the best looking the car has ever been admittedly.

I never even considered the Boxter though, it was always going to be a Cayman S for me and I don't regret getting mine at all. Just love the looks, speed and noise.

I use it as my daily drive and although hard on the 19" wheels it is perfectly usable every day

The 911 simply has the biggest arse of any car, just can't get my head around it
 
The 911 is a classic, with classic looks and incredible performance for every day use. I generally think the 911 is one of the best looking cars ever made, and to mess with it is sacrilege. There isnt really another car that has the same appeal. How ever good the Z4M is, it doesn't quite cut it with the 911, having access to both it gives a real world comparison.

Stats only tell you half the story.

The 911 is just a great car to drive like nothing on the road. The Cayman I test drove before buying the M and for the extra 5-10K that it was... I found it pretty boring tbh, great car just boring and the fact it does look like a boxter with a roof just doesn't have the appeal... The 911 is exactly that the real deal and Porsche wont enable the cayman its real potential because of that. Would be a 911 every day for me, cayman or boxter wouldn't get a look in. The M in BMW terms is the best you can get... a boxter is entry a cayman if you want something with a roof and 911 is the pinnacle of the brand.

If you haven't driven one go drive one. The Z is a great car which is why I bought one, but the porsche is a different breed altogether. Its like an event driving it everyday, feels special and similar to the Z a bit of a handful unlike the cayman and boxter.

It is true tho, value for money is questionable. But the reason half of us have Zs is because they are cheap now, The 911 is a different territory and priced accordingly I suppose. But there are great 911s out there, 40K will buy you a very special one indeed, and 40K IMO is a price worth paying! Awesome cars.

But if you are used the the M then the cayman is a very fast but a soft version, most will be disapointed. There is a reason most of us went Z4M because its a niche within a niche perfect for very few people. The Cayman gives you too much confidence and that for me is a no no, lulls you into a false sense of security, then you drive any other car and end up in a hedge. I want to feel like im driving it, not that its driving me and thats where the appeal is. The 911 for me is the only upgrade from the Z4M.

On a side note the 911 rides better than any M I have driven.

I am talking the more modern 911 as thats all I have had experience with, 997 MKI and MKII. Although I test drove a 996 C4S which apart from the turbo and GT3 would be the only 996 I would buy. It sounded and drove really well and I loved it, I have a real soft spot for the wide body 911s and I always wanted a 996 C4S though it was the best looking 996 by far but the Z4M did offer better value for money, for a half decent 2002-2004 C4S your looking anywhere between 20k for a poor version and 30k for a garage queen. THe Z4Ms a good one is 16-18k and about 3 years newer a full BMW warranty and newer tech in the car which is also important. The Porsches do cost money to look after but as long as you know the faults and how to remedy them there is no issue with buying them, JUST LOOK AFTER THEM! Thats the real problem people buy them and dont look after them properly, which means issues for you. The BMW will get away with being treated pretty rough but the Porsche doesnt needs care. TBH when I have a bit more spare cash I will jump to a 997 C4S or a Cs. The Cs we have right now is a riot.
 
Having owned 2 911's I clearly like them (996 C2 Cab and 997 TT Cab).......at the time when I bought both there was no Boxster that could compete on spec or performance and I'd always wanted a 911 since I was small.

The Boxster and 911 are both great cars........for those that I know with 911's the extra 2 seats in the back help convince the wife it is a more practical car (well at least until kids get to about 10!).

Based on my experience there is simply no comparison between the Z and a 911, not least due to the price differential.....
 
I followed one of those Boxsters all the way from Goodwood to Hindhead on my way home and I think it looked very nice indeed. It seems huge though in its latest revision, complete with 20 inch wheels.

Although I've not driven them, I would say the difference in handling between the 911 and the Boxster is one of the crucial differences between the cars and defines how they are driven on the limit. i.e. the 911 would have even more of a pendulum effect at the rear when lifting off and turning in than the Boxster and infinitely more than the Z4.
 
Woo7dy said:
No...! Are you offering a spin??! : )

In all honesty they're both great cars (Z & Porsche) just depends what you want from it. I've heard so many scare stories regarding the 3MC handling, would love a go though!
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If you mean a spin through 360 degrees+ the car would be more than happy to oblige. :rofl: I'd give you a passenger ride in it if you'd like.
 
I'm sorry Tom, I just cannot get over the fact that if you were to design a car specifically for it to drive well, you wouldn't fit the engine behind the rear wheels. It was designed this way purely for ergonomics, so that you could make a small car fit 4 passengers. This philosophy worked well for the Beetle but for Porsche, they have spent the last 50 years trying to fix this fundamental flaw.
 
And done a pretty awesome job... cant deny that, and its traits are loved by the drivers.

One of the most iconic and favoured sports cars of all time.
 
Have to say your Cayman looks absolutely stunning ! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but to me it looks just what it is i.e. fast , class and expensive ! There are few affordable cars around ( other tha supercars ) that make you catch your breath and have the "wow " factor but this one certainly does. The zed has got this factor to a degree although IMHO the latest model has lost some of the visual impact of the early pre- facelift models and whist the M has a magnificent engine it looks the same as a non M other than an extra pair of exhaust pipes. The Cayman though is definitely in a class of it's own.
 
gov said:
Have to say your Cayman looks absolutely stunning ! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but to me it looks just what it is i.e. fast , class and expensive ! There are few affordable cars around ( other tha supercars ) that make you catch your breath and have the "wow " factor but this one certainly does. The zed has got this factor to a degree although IMHO the latest model has lost some of the visual impact of the early pre- facelift models and whist the M has a magnificent engine it looks the same as a non M other than an extra pair of exhaust pipes. The Cayman though is definitely in a class of it's own.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
tomscott said:
And done a pretty awesome job... cant deny that, and its traits are loved by the drivers.

One of the most iconic and favoured sports cars of all time.
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I believe you are confusing handling traits that require respect rather than inspiring confidence that the legend was born. A lack of skill and fast driving usually meant a trip to casualty because there was very little warning before the back end broke traction and you ended arse ways into a hedge. So because we all believe that we are related in some way to Ayrton Senna and are thus driving gods/goddesses and only such immortals can handle a wild car like the 911, they sold reasonably well.

The advent of traction control et al does however mean that most mere mortals like myself can circumvent this handling flaw, but that cannot change the fact that the engine and thus the cars natural balance is in completely the wrong place.
 
sars said:
I'm sorry Tom, I just cannot get over the fact that if you were to design a car specifically for it to drive well, you wouldn't fit the engine behind the rear wheels. It was designed this way purely for ergonomics, so that you could make a small car fit 4 passengers. This philosophy worked well for the Beetle but for Porsche, they have spent the last 50 years trying to fix this fundamental flaw.
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Whilst this may well be true, putting the engine at the back gives Porsche it's distinctive look and it's USP (unique selling point). Despite this, Porsche has been able to make this design work and if you've ever driven at The Ring, it's invariably the well-driven Porsches that go flying by. Consequently, Porsche has earned a reputation for producing real "drivers' " cars, coupled with their distinctive looks and high purchase price, making them into one of the desirable brands and a status symbol.

Here's an interesting illustrated article on the suspension set up of a 2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S: http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...on-walkaround-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s.html. In putting the engine at the rear there must be two obvious advantages: 1. you are adding weight over the rear driven wheels which must help traction, 2. you don't need a propshaft running from front to rear (as per BMW) which overall lightens the car.

If I could buy a Porsche 911 of the same age as my Z4MC for the same price, I know which I would buy.
 
Yes it was a trait with the older cars, and entirely normal. Pretty much every car fan knows about these traits and knows to tread carefully. But there are also those who like the 911 for these reasons. But I said nothing of the 993s and older. I was talking about 996, 997 and 991, the modern variants, which the first 2 I have a fair amount of driving time with.

I have to agree with Exdos, although his argument better put than mine.
 
911 is one of the best high performance cars that hasnt really changed that much over the years loved them since i was small.have to have a big pocket to keep them running.but on the other hand the parts are not as dear as the mz4 .brake sets discs etc less than half the price of mz4. they are a true drivers car a bit of a hand full but what a drive :thumbsup: would have one if i could get the same year as my zed for the money i paided but it is not going to happen :thumbsdown:
 
I love the 911's but the 991 has a very bold pricing strategy putting it kindly.

When such a 911 fan as Chris Harris questions the wisdom of needing one over a new Boxster (unless you need the rear "seats") then you have to sit up and take notice. If it's not the outright power advantage that you need that an S, Turbo, or GT model will give you, I really can't see the point of spending the extra over a Boxster/Cayman and buying a Carrera.
 
You just have to look at that posted article to confirm all the points from my previous comments, that there is substantial trickery involved to make the best of a bad job and I openly admit that what they have done is miraculous.

There is absolutely no advantage in having the engine situated behind the rear wheels, apart from internal ergonomics. In every other high performance car the engine sits before the rear wheels, so that when you accelerate the mass transfers backwards to the rear wheels giving you better grip when you need it. In the 911 as you accelerate the mass of the engine moves further behind the rear wheels giving you less grip and significantly lightens the load at the front (see saw effect)
 
Wow, this thread is getting deep, heavy and too complicated for me to understand now...!
 
Stark said:
What I didn't get, is why would you pay £20k more and buy a 991?
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Well Nick possibly because they look like this?

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Never the less its a great car and the drive is like no other. You are correct that the steering is lighter under acceleration, but I think if they changed it they would loose all their custom. The 911 is pretty much the face of Porsche so by changing its design there would be an outcry. Similar to the move from air cooled to water cooled or hydrolic to electronic steering.

Which is why they brought out the Cayman but they wont let it stretch its legs because of the 911. Even the R is restricted. But flaws make me like it more, I dont like these clinical cars without soul or personality like the GTR. Same with the Z4M there is a fair amount of flaw in that too, but it has personality and soul and I really do love driving it and I would say 99% of people here want one.

OG I also completely agree, but I dont think I will ever be able to afford to spend 100k on a car anyway and even if I could I wouldn't. But I do love the 997s and by Porsche standards you can get some great cars for around the 40K price point. Which I think is worth it.

Down to costs of running I have said it once and will say it again so far in the 18 months the Porsche has cost less than my Z4M both with major servicing and about the same milage 6k. Many of the specialists are approved Porsche specialists and the service costs are in this world, they are also in the Porsche world acceptable by garages and purists, unlike the BMW specialists. If anything major services cost less than BMW M services by a fair amount.

Also all the specialists dont remove the engine unlike Porsche garages to replace the CDV so takes less time and costs much less. Last service was its second service at 12k and cost £550. So about the same as a 3.0l Z, including CDV. We usually use strauss, if you check their services you will find the prices extremely surprising.

There is a lot of scare mongering. The advice I would give to people that want one and are scared... Porsche offer a 111 point inspection on any car for about £250 (not 100% about the price) this will point out any potential problem including CDV so if you are interested in one then this is a great way of finding out what is wrong with the vehicle. With this inspection you receive a certificate and this enables you to purchase a full Porsche warranty, which includes up to 12k for engine replacement if it does go.

This inspection is what they do with any used Porsche to make it showroom ready. But it is a little more in depth than the BMW one.
 
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